FWIW: Cold fusion from hot-dysfunction Greece?

Welcome to the Precious Metals Bug Forums

Welcome to the PMBug forums - a watering hole for folks interested in gold, silver, precious metals, sound money, investing, market and economic news, central bank monetary policies, politics and more. You can visit the forum page to see the list of forum nodes (categories/rooms) for topics.

Please have a look around and if you like what you see, please consider registering an account and joining the discussions. When you register an account and log in, you may enjoy additional benefits including no ads, market data/charts, access to trade/barter with the community and much more. Registering an account is free - you have nothing to lose!

bushi

Ground Beetle
Messages
968
Reaction score
7
Points
143
http://pesn.com/2012/02/13/9602039_Hope_from_Athens_found_in_Cold_Fusion/

I was following the story of one Italian professor from Italy's University of Bologne (one of the oldest in Europe, if not the oldest) claiming being able to produce low-temp fusion reactions, that are quite safe, and do not produce radioactive waste (there is some radiation when reactions take place, but it is easy to contain, and stops when reaction is stopped). Apparently, the company featured in the link above, was meant to help him commercialize/mass produce generators that would fuse Nickel and Hydrogen, producing excess heat (and the rest of the story is pretty much conventional: water+heat=>steam=>steam turbine=>generator=>TADA!). The cooperation didnt went well, and they parted ways with good professor, but apparently didn't part the ways with the idea of commercializing the generator. But that's another story.

I thought I will send you a link, because it is one thing I know of, IF TRUE & CONFIRMED, that could indeed save the day, and let us in the near horizon produce affordable, dependable, safe, clean, and extremely cost efficient distributed energy sources. That would allow us to keep up with the growing energy needs of the growing economy - although the switch from oil to electricity would still be very costly and potentially, cost-prohibitive, for troubled economies. So expect bumpy road ahead even in the best case scenario (that this stuff indeed works, and is not some kind of scam to lure investors, or some stupid measurements errors)

See the big font? that is how big IF it is ;). For now, there is no independent confirmation, that I know of, and inventors's track of record is not exactly crystal clear. He was serving time for some illegal market activities. Tinfoil hats cry "suppression", but I do not have an opinion, might be, might be not. The whole story SEEMS plausible, given the list of serious people involved in (many academics).

UPDATE: that is original inventor's story (guys in link above, although initially meant to mass-produce Rossi's generators, claim that their own version does not conflict with intellectual property of A.Rossi & co. Hard to believe, but I do not really care that much, as long as the story is true and SOMEBODY starts selling these babes to the public):
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_A._Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Generator
 
Last edited:
You are totally trolling DCF now, aren't you? :rotflmbo:

Evaluating the merits of his discovery is beyond me, but if no one can independently confirm the process, I will remain skeptical. There seem to be a lot of charlatans playing in this field.

Nickel huh? Kyle Bass likes the sound of that.
 
...no denial here, I'd like to hear his take on it! And I totally agree, until it is not independently confirmed OR sold & tested in the field, I won't be selling your solar panels, DCF - and I do not think you need this advice from me :D. But I also appreciate the fact, that the original (alleged ;)) inventor is not running to everybody, describing his test bed setups, and asking for independent replication/verification. The story is self-commenting in this regard - re his misfortune with the licensee, turned into "independent manufacturer".

I am all for science, but, and here's just one small but.. There's so many known unknowns & unknown unknowns in our understanding of this World & beyond (despite the huge understanding amassed since this human race started collecting it, that I fully appreciate), that it would make good old Donald R. blush. So I do not rule anything out, just because the current "rule of science" says so. That would be very non-scientific approach :). I will judge this guy for his achievements, or lack of them - and I am well aware that this area is full of charlatans, and this one might very well be one of them.
 
Last edited:
Tinfoil hats cry "suppression", but I do not have an opinion, might be, might be not. The whole story SEEMS plausible,...

This reminds me of the guy that promised to create a car that could run on water. He busied himself for a time doing so, and when he had accomplished the feat, he Drove it to the U.S. Patent building. Never to be heard from again.
 
...the only saving grace I see in it, that makes me say "plausible", is the involvement of several scientists and universities, and quite substantial investments already done, to mass produce it. Allegedly, investors were demoed, before committing to the plant manufacturing. That would seem likely to me as well, that any serious investment would be precluded with at least non-public demo/confirmation, for potential investors - and that is what has happened, to my knowledge (again - ALLEGEDLY :))

But again, I do not claim yes or not on this
 
Last edited:
Ummmmm......

Cold fusion? That's like getting a high definition picture of an actual unicorn.
 
Ancona: why, because it hasn't been announced by mainstream yet? I thought we all know better than this here ;-)

Some more news: they have announced they are letting independent scientists to test the devices soon.

http://www.postcarbon.org/article/724788-the-peak-oil-crisis-technology-update

The 800 lb. gorilla of course remains cold fusion. While little new has happened in the cold fusion story recently, scientists from around the world continue to report that Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR) really do take place and can make heat. S

This situation may be changing, however, for one of these two companies, a Greece-based organization called Defkalion, say they have arranged for teams of outside investigators to come in later this week and test their device. If this series of tests by outside scientists do take place, we should at least have some sort of independent verification that these "cold fusion" devices are for real, and not a scam as many believe.
 
I've been offered shares in Blacklight Power Inc. ( http://www.blacklightpower.com/ ) for $ 6000 a share half a year ago.
Several serious people and companies are invested in that firm. I declined anyway.
Antony Sutton has written a book about cold fusion ten years ago and claimed it was a suppressed technology. Gerald Celente "predicted" that we'll have an energy revolution in the near future in his trends journal last year. My brother's girlfriend works at the CERN project ( http://public.web.cern.ch/public/ ) in Geneva as an astrophysicist. She looked at the claims by several "inventors" and thinks they aren't up to something.
 
You can troll me all ya want. I'm pretty sure Rossi's a fraud. He does have a track record there...
I'd happily take substantial bets with me betting on the fraud side, with some fixed duration from pretty much all comers. Say, $10,000 each share?
http://xkcd.com/955/

This kind of stuff I get asked about all the time, so often it gets boring. Alt energy is a great place to be a scammer because there are so many starry eyed hopefuls to part from their money.

In this particular case, someone who knows the guy got a few details and tried to dupe his work, and did get some energy - about the amount you'd get burning that much hydrogen with the oxygen adsorbed on a nickel catalyst surface. No more.
He looked for copper with good gear (mass spectrometer). None.
He documented his attempt over on fusor.net FWIW. It was fairly convincing.
Such as it exists, Rossi's theory is that you can add a proton to a nickel atom and wind up with copper after a decay event. I don't think the masses work out, but since there are a few isotopes of each (with different numbers of neutrons and different non-integer masses due to different binding forces) it takes a lot of work with numbers more precise than in the chemistry books to even find out if there's such a reaction possible that has a mass defect at all. The simple calcs say, nope, you go up in total mass, and have to put in energy to do that.


I could probably utterly debunk his theory if he had one - I don't think there's even a mass discrepancy in the correct direction between what goes in and what comes out, and you need that unless we're going to say mass/energy isn't conserved. We know of no exceptions to that one at the moment, and no hints that we might be wrong.

And that's Rossi's problem - even he says he doesn't understand it, there's no theory at all.

I did see Rossi's patent application - it was rejected for non-specificity. His papers were rejected by everybody but a publisher he set up. In other words, it has all the hallmarks of every scam this business has ever seen, rather than an honest mistake. Which is what most of us think Pons and Fleischman was.

I won't say LENR (cold fusion) isn't possible - because it is, theoretically. But the theory of how things work isn't predictive of how you'd do it, any more than E-MC^2 tells you how to do that - it just says what would happen if you could convert one to the other and how much.

The more we know, the smaller the world of possibilities becomes. If you posit some new theory, well, it has to explain all the existing observations - and the wiggle room there is only getting smaller. It's a big universe and it seems almost anything that could happen has happened and been observed out there - for example, the dark matter theory, when really worked out, would tend to predict different abundance of the elements than astronomers actually observe - so it's not right, for certain. There might be some variation that IS, just that the extant one is certainly wrong.

Now, under the standard model, if you could change say, the Coulomb force, or maybe Planck's constant - man you could do things and go places. But so far we've never observed - from particle accelerators to deep space - any hint that this could be possible, and there's no way in existing theory that it could happen. In some cases if it happened anywhere, it would destroy the universe more or less instantly, so the fact that were here tends to say it doesn't happen. Why those two? I can explain, hopefully without too much complexity.

Lets take one of the simpler and easier to do reactions for fusion, which is deuterium with another D going into something else, one possibility is He (rare). That one gives 16 Mev of energy out as an X ray. The other two give a proton and Tritium, or a neutron and He3 and roughly 3.5 mev excess energy. Here's the isotopes involved:
D is a proton and a neutron, heavy hydrogen
T is a proton and two neutrons, heavier hydrogen. Nasty, radioactive stuff.
He3 is helium but only has one neutron.
He has two of each - so two D's can be one He.

How can that last one give energy? After all, it's the same number of the same stuff as you put in. But - it weighs less than two D's. The reason is the binding force between the protons and neutrons is more "satisfied" in He than it is in the D's. It's as though they all fit better into He than they do as D's. The energy released could be thought of as what happens when a stretched rubber band is allowed to relax, and He weighs just a very little bit less than two Ds because of that.

Further, due to things that are quite similar to the reasons electron shells are as they are in chemistry - the pieces "want" to get together in just this way. You have two protons of opposite spin with two neutrons also opposite filling a "shell" just like in chemistry. You'd think they want to get together like that, and actually they do.

Here's the problem. Those protons repel each other - like charges. They are pretty light (takes 6.02 e 23 of them to make a gram) but the forces required to push two to touching are huge - on the order of pounds/tons. Several mega electron volts (which is a small unit, so the number is big) - but remember, we only got 16 mev out at best because the 'mass defect" is also really small, much less than the weight of a single proton. Thus we need to put in energy (heat!) in some way to get them close enough together for the strong force to pull them in the rest of the way - that's hot fusion. Cold stuff doesn't have the energy to get there, which is why the sun is such a rotten fusion reactor (it's not that hot on this scale), even with heat and all that gravity pushing it all together - it's only so much gravity, and there's not enough to be pounds per nucleus. You should be glad it is - else it would have gone bang like an H bomb. My own fusion reactor has FAR higher energy density. So, solve that repulsion problem (the Couloumb effect) and there you are -

Or,
As luck would have it, due to the uncertainty principle, and quantum mechanics (wave functions) particles are also waves, and kind of have no definite position. What this means is that we don't have to make them touch to get them to stick, quite. That's called quantum tunneling, and yes, it's real and I can verify that.
But those wavefunctions are still tiny - it's not much help with this - because Planck's constant is also very tiny. We know of no way to increase that at present, and if it happened in nature, the universe would be a very different place - good evidence that if it does happen, it's really rare.

For reference, to get close enough to tunnel, here I need about 16 kev on each D to push them close enough (actually put enough speed on each and aim them at one another) such that one in about 10 million fuse - tunneling is probabalistic so some happens farther out - wavefunctions are like that - the distribution has "tails". This corresponds to millions of degrees if you treat it as a temperature, but I don't because my D's aren't hot - hot things have randomly directed motion, and I avoid that which is why I'm doing so well. The other 5 degrees of freedom (there are X, Y Z, and spin around all three as degrees of freedom) are just wasted input energy.Thus, even my high energy fusion is in one sense "cold" - I avoid randomness.

So, for cold fusion to work, you need to somehow overcome that repulsion to get things close enough together to make tunneling happen. EG, either make the repulsion go away (somehow reduce the effects of like charges), or make the uncertainty bigger (increase Planck's constant). Any theory that purports to be the key to fusion has to handle that some way.

There's one more possibility - due to the tails, some fusion can happen even with things pretty far apart due to the tails on the wavefunctions. But those tails are super tiny - it falls off faster than simple exponential. So you could hope that if you had some sort of situation where things bounced close and far, close and far (which needn't take energy if there's a pefect spring) that fusion might happen rarely, but you could try a lot of times for free - kind of like a guitar string might "ring" a long time from one picking - and maybe break on a peak of deflection once in awhile. I think that's what the LENR guys are hoping, but frankly if you read what they write, they are so dead wrong and unschooled on things we know for sure, it's hard to take them seriously.

But actually, and this is where I'm working now, there's just one more way. Perfect aim. If you could aim a D perfectly at another D and hit it every time, just like a benchrest shooter - (which implies very low temperature, no wiggling allowed) but with energy on it in just one degree, say X axis - then with that 32kev of energy you could get 100% fusion rates, and each fusion gives off either around 3 mev, or 16 mev, depending on the reaction pathway taken (which depends on the spins of the incoming protons and neutrons in the D's, so my theory goes). At any rate, that's decent net gain. Actually, to get to 100% rate, you'd need about 250kev energy - but that's still decent gain - call it 64 to one.

But - in a solid substance, say frozen D, the nuclei are the size of golf balls spaced roughly 1/3 of a mile apart, and it's very hard to squeeze them closer together. If you take out the electrons, they repel each other with a force no material can resist. If you leave them in the electrons hold them apart due to the geometry of their "orbits" which aren't really that as most picture them, but it works out similarly anyway. ( quantum wavefunctions are cool looking dipoles and multipoles but it takes pictures to get a hint how it really works and looks)

So, all you'd have to do is have a crystal where you know with high precision where every single nucleus was - and a perfect ion shooter gun to aim at the golf balls and miss all the grass in between, without of course, jiggling anything when you did hit one. What we do in particle accelerators or beam on target devices is more like shooting at the field of golf balls with a shotgun from a helicopter - you mostly miss, and most of the lead and gunpowder is wasted. An array of benchrest guns, perfectly aimed and fired all at once (so the first hit doesn't jiggle the targets before the other bullets get there) could work, in theory.

There is just a ghost of a chance that coherent vibrations (phonons, sound or heat) in say, palladium with D adsorbed on it could accomplish this in the crystal lattice, which is why that stuff was given even a New York second before it was tossed out the window. But it's a damn slim chance, and no one ever has....So the dreamers think some form of LENR might work out. There are just too many people who believe that Moore's law etc apply in cases where they don't, and man's been pretty lucky finding new things that have saved us before. But I think there's no guarantee of that going on forever.

Simple, eh? All you have to do is squeeze a couple things together against an infinite-range force that goes up as the square of close, until they hang around close enough long enough for a very short range force that has tails - but they decay faster than exponential with range - to take over, and fuse them. Simple in concept, anyway.

Before someone says, well, H bombs work - let me say this. Those conditions are kind of hard to work with, and you know what? It's not the resulting fusion that gives most of the energy in one. It's the fact that the D-Li6 reaction gives copious neutrons, which make the uranium or plutonium fission more before the thing blows itself apart....and a fission reaction gives on average over 150 Mev of output - ten times the energy a normal fusion reaction gives...In other words, they give you a way to burn all the fission fuel quicker, instead of the about 1% the first nukes got before they vaporized themselves and disrupted the reaction. Not many years ago that was so classified I'd be writing myself a ticket to jail for saying it, but it's out now.

Actually, this is the fewest words I've ever been able to condense this into so far, and I'm going to keep a copy. I anticipate some questions, because I've left out some important details, but this is not a bad overview. Most people are surprised to learn that in either fission or fusion, no actual particles - protons or neutrons or electrons, actually disappear at all - it's all just how nicely things wind up being packed after versus before. A neutron can decay into a proton and electron, which together weigh less than a neutron, and that gives off energy too - and it happens in beta decay after fission. So all that mass that gets converted to energy is just binding force (what particle guys call the strong force) being added or subtracted from a system of nucleons. Not a big fraction of the total mass involved at all - it's out in the decimals. For pure conversion, you're talking antimatter annihilation kinds of things, which we only do in particle accelerators at ruinous inefficiency - you have to create the stuff first, at a loss (you miss a lot).
 
Last edited:
When you look at the history of "supressed techologies" you find out they were all frauds - It's a fun history starting mostly with Tesla. His "supressed" bladeless turbine works - but has 1% efficiency. Yeah, you can send radio waves through the air, and broadcast power -another suppressed tech, but it's even less efficient.

Economics always wins. If there was a 200 mpg carb, don't you think it would have leaked out by now? It would only have to cheat well-accepted laws of thermodynamics, after all, modern cars get nearly 30% of the energy out of gasoline, and that's not the problem - wind and rolling resistance are.

Fusion at gain - however you get there, is a trillion dollar baby, the ultimate high risk/high payoff issue in the world. The crumbs from that table would make anyone wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice. Things like that aren't suppressed, they are stolen and exploited, historically. The optical telescope was one of those.

And that's why I don't patent - and am giving away all my research results open source. The crumbs from that table would be fine with me, and the credit for being the originator would give me a speaking tour anyone would envy, even if someone else "steals" it to exploit. I don't want a target on my back either, should I succeed.
It's also why I self-fund all of it. No one who's begged money has ever been anything but a charlatan in all history. I don't need to be painted with that brush!
 
Well, it will soon be a moot point to be discussing the Rossi cold fusion. The Ecat company is supposed to be bringing out his invention this year for producing heat and using a heat pump to create cold. Should be producing electricity in another year or two. IF, it does come out this year, great. IF not then the speculation is over.
Link to Ecat. http://ecat.com/
 
Hi DCFusor!

Thanks for the post! I do have a general understanding of that stuff (like in: very general ;)), so I am able to follow someone's line of thought, but would have trouble putting it all together myself (and if I started calculating, I would mess up completely). Just one of those things that I once learned, passed exams, and all the details evaporated quickly afterwards - had no use for it...

I don't want to make strawman arguments here, and do agree that the field of "free energy" is riddled with charlatans, some of them just pathetic, and some - just misunderstanding, and conducting gross measurement errors (in/out energy ballance).

One thing about Rossi/ Defkalion, that puts it still into somehow "plausible" territory (and don't get me wrong - they say it is fusion, you mentioned it might be some kind of catalyst - I do not care, as long as it produces excess heat, from the stuff they claim they put in), is that they parted their ways not exactly friendly, and few months afterwards, Defkalion comes out with their nearly "ready to ship" generators. To quote:
Things like that aren't suppressed, they are stolen and exploited, historically.
...that development makes me think they might be up to something - together with the fact, that Defkalion allegedly prepares to ship these things in near future. We will just see...
 
Well, that's just it - they won't let anyone see if they are actually producing net excess energy above what you get from just burning the hydrogen (catalyst). The pump in H, get steam - very suggestive of a simple burning process. So far, no one with real creds or instruments has been allowed to come near the thing when it's "working" - or even when its not. All this secrecy and exclusion of the rest of the scientific community instead. That doesn't bode well at all.

Soon be moot? This is about the 5th time "we'll be sure in a year" on just this one. Sound familiar? Reminds me of extend and pretend. They already "proved" it worked last Fall, except for some reason, the "independent" observers never quite managed to publish any detailed data. How long do we put up with "just give me money for another year and it'll really be great, honest?" - for something that supposedly already works? They are just playing on those with short memories. We've supposedly already had the "proof" - but the actual data just never materialized. It doesn't take 6 months to prove one number is larger than another.

At least Pons and Fleischman were simply wrong. Some of the LENR videos (people do give scientists money to look at this) I've seen were the worst bafflegab out there, plenty to fool the general public who thinks they know something via reading Scientific American...while pretending to give details, they leave out everything crucial, promote theories that have to be wrong (the universe wouldn't exist if they were true) and so on - few are equipped to "follow the numbers" and see that, but if you are, you are stunned at the sheer chutzpah these guys exhibit to get the nice office and the cute secretary as long as "There's one born every minute".

And you're right - we'll just have to see. They're not getting any of my money, that's for sure. It's clear our own government (and a few others with the skills required to evaluate this) don't think it's real - the strategic value if it were would have taken this story in quite a different direction than what we see now. Think how many apple-carts it would upset if it works...

Catalysis doesn't add energy over the basic theory of burning, it just makes it go the the theoretical completion if it's perfect - which we get without one in the case of burning hydrogen. The trick there is you can get it to react at lower temperatures with a catalyst than otherwise - precisely the opposite of what you want to drive a heat engine with, but good to prevent people from noticing obvious flames...
 
Thanks DCFusor,

Got your part regarding catalyst, actually that is one thing that I am most vary about - since they are always mum on how much HYDROGEN the thing consumes.

Well, lack of an answer is also an answer, isn't it. We will soon see.

Off topic, but always wanted to talk to someone with a very good scientific background: we all know about 2nd law of thermodynamics. And we all know about refrigerators/heat pumps. And we should all know they are operating at efficiencies over 100% (more heat energy out, than electricity in). And I know that the missing heat is drawn in from the surroundings (or in case of fridge, from it's insides)

But to me, it seems that we are (as for the general principle) able to extract more energy from the device + it's environment, that we put in, in specific cases. So it follows logically, that it should be theoretically possible to design other devices, that would work at the similar principle - "drawing" the surrounding energy in (in whatever way), and providing more of usable energy to it's users, that we need to put in. Heat is but one example (and maybe only one possible to apply practically - that I do not know).

It seems to me, that this paradox is never taught that way, and it kind of fixes all science-aware people on the "net-energy-surplus-device-cannot-be-done, according-to-the-thermodynamics" line of thought. It seems to be a glaring omission to me - well it CAN be done with heat pumps (and w/ the little help of our good old friend Sun, providing us with ~300K environment we live in). But in this case, heat energy is effectively drawn from low-temp region (=ground), and into high-temp region (=underfloor heating pipes :)), and we ARE energy net-positive in the process - for all practical intents and purposes?
 
I think I know a few tricks along those lines myself, and most who invoke the second law don't really understand it well enough - they're just "glib examinees on subjects they have no exact knowledge of" in general.

However, a heat pump (any that exist now) don't really get you there. Yes, in the ideal case, the hot side has all the heat from the input energy plus what the cold side got from the environment -which can be net a few times the input energy - but at such a low temperature drop to some other part of the environment you can't run a heat engine off it well enough to get your input electricity back. Were it perfect, you'd just break even with that technology.

However, the second law requires that the universe be truly linear and all things be random, so that Maxwell's demon requires more energy to just pick the hot ones from the cold ones than you'd get doing that in a Maxwellian (thermal) distribution of same.

However, the universe isn't always linear, and all distributions aren't Maxwellian at all scales.

I can point out two ways of taking advantage of this one, but should point out that they are both hard to understand and maybe it gets a little long for here, but should work in theory - and I mean all the existing accepted ones, as they don't explicitly deny anything that's actually in the second law.

One is very simple, and it mystified "scientists" when they first saw it (I wrote and straightened them out). Someone was making a thing for photonics, which was an array of tiny tungsten rods sticking out of a substrate on the nano scale - around the wavelengths of visible light. These have defects as etched, so they anneal them to fix that up. They noticed the thing giving off visible light at fairly low temperatures, way lower than most things would, and were mystified by that.

Well, any distribution has tails. Even fairly cold, there are some things in a system, even with the random equipartition of energy on average - that reach fairly high energy states. If you have a mechanism that can "extract" just those states, you get high quality energy out of low - in this case white light at only a few hundred degrees F, and the tails will repopulate via the random exchange mechanism that the second law says you can't beat - on average.

In this case, the "nonlinearity" was simply that the little tungsten rods were actually dipole antennas tuned to "visible light", so they radiated extra efficiently from any states at the far right of the tail of the distribution - not a diode like nonlinearity, but a selection process none the less. These idiot specialists didn't realize they'd made an efficient tuned array antenna (even though that was kind of what they were trying to do along another axis) - light is just another radio wave after all. I see this all the time, where there's just so much specialization that people don't realize they are seeing something well known in another specialty. In theory, something like that could change at least some low quality energy into higher quality from which you could run a heat engine and get gain - taking heat from the environment (there's still no free).

And here's another of my own invention, based on Brownian motion. Due to chance, sometimes a bunch of atoms in say, a liquid, all get going the same way, and when they hit a macroscopic particle, impart macroscopic motion to it. This is well known, and another thing that "selects" from the tails of an otherwise random distribution.

Now, imagine those particles were tiny magnets. We wind coils around the cell in all three axes to capture electricity from the magnet motion no matter how it moves, one cell per magnet (so you need chip techology to make huge arrays of these). We rectify the signal from each coil with a perfect diode (theoretically possible but we're only close so far, and that's the limit of the approach) so we can sum the electricity, otherwise random-phase noise - from all the cells, and have a battery. It just keeps getting colder as we take energy from it. In the limit, if you could do this well enough, it would get cold enough to liquefy air, and energy would bring itself to you as the liquid air dripped off the thing. Or you could hang it in the ocean, say.

Right now, with stuff I can get now, this only works decently at medium hot temperatures, at which solid state diodes have a hard time staying alive. But we keep improving that one in all directions, the limits aren't here yet.

And I even know a guy with some input to a semi-fab. But I don't have to dough to pay for a run to test it....it would never be huge power from a small size, understand, but it would be very useful in things like space probes and far better than the thermocouples in radioactive junk for powering things like that on a small scale, and with a whole ocean to draw from, might even be home power for some someday.

And it doesn't break the laws at all - just found a loophole in the oversimplified statements thereof. The thing is - there's just not all that much energy to get out of a gram of warm water...
 
Good man, DCFusor, that is quite fascinating stuff you write about!

Talking about energy quality & heat pumps: that is a bummer, indeed, but could we imagine "staging" few heat pumps in series (each using different working fluid/gas, and fine tuned to a different temperature working point), so each stage consumes some electricity + lower stage heat pump's heat output - so eventually we'd reach some useful temperatures, and possibly, still be net energy plus? But I think in this case problem is, that we are getting in environment energy only in the first stage, and each upper stage would only have previous-stage's output + it's own energy input (=wall plug) to consume, so the only net gain would be happening at the lowest stage, and the other stages would be only "distilling" the heat, so to speak, into a higher quality (=higher temp) - and inevitably, doing so at a loss. Is that correct thinking?
 
Last edited:
Dense, agreed - I really try to compress it, else it would be so long it'd take the years to read it it took me to learn the stuff in the first place. It's been my hobby all along to try and learn and keep up with all real, hard, science (the stuff you can hang a number on and get repeatable results from). For the last decade or so it's been pretty depressing, as most of the "inventions" now made were also made in the '50s or '60s and people just don't know it's been done already - poor communication and too lazy to know the history.

And for the last 30-40 years, most of the writing has been bafflegab to impress someone with the jargon, rather than trying to really explain what's going on, because if you realized how unremarkable it mostly was, you wouldn't fund it.
Very high hype to content ratio. If a tiny fraction of these "this will safe the world, if" inventions ever really came true, after all, the world would have been saved long since.

I don't think you can ever get there with the heat pumps, but I'd have to do the boring run the numbers thing again. Some of the heat is lost in things other than the radiator. It's a thing that does follow the "law of averages" of the second law - there is no non linear or selection process involved I know of. Since changing a temperature drop back into electricity has a limit on efficiency that depends on the drop, but is never 100% - I think you're hosed trying that. I believe you run into the sort of thing where one has a different exponent than the other so trying to scale it up it just gets worse and worse. Kind of like the volume to surface area ratio versus scale, which is the reason nothing small can afford to be warm blooded - can't make enough heat in the small volume (goes as size cubed) to compensate for the surface area (goes as size squared). So with increasing size, volume goes up much quicker and you've got enough stuff to make the heat to compensate the loss, in an animal. Thus only large things can be warm blooded and eat and burn fast enough to stay warm.
 
Thank You for the reality check DCF !
Your words are salutary.

I so badly want there to be a hole in the 2nd law .....
every time i read about anomalous behaviour in our reality and someone thinks there 'might be something', im filled with hope
Ive seen what John Bedini does with an anomalous spike in his circuits and similar ideas for the dissociation of water molecules to HHO and get all excited but they all, so far, fall short ....

I am that dreamer who would be parted from his shiny, if i were invited to a posh testing lab by Rossi and fed enough garbage.


And respect to you for going 'open source' with your work.
 
Well, me too, but a life of hard reality - and the situation where I have no excuse not to test this stuff myself, well, there's not many holes in things. I did just give two in the second law (at least as most misunderstand it when they're telling you "no way").

The key is finding a selection process or nonlinearity that requires no energy of its own to operate, like the tuned antennas or a perfect diode....then you can skim the tails off the distribution the second law (and statistics) creates on just about everything. Not wonderful high power density, but frankly - the fact that it's there at all and acts like Maxwell's demon should be front page news, but isn't. It gets shouted down by people with only high-school physics and not even looked into for what it is.

The fact that this can exist at all only seems to be acknowledged in cosmology, where a big fat nonlinearity exists - the even horizon of black holes. You'd think that this would be the opening wedge for more thinking about similar things - after all, a singularity in space-time (relativity) is by far not the most common or easiest selection system possible, by far.
But without it there wouldn't be Steven Hawking's Swarzchild radiation and he wouldn't be famous.

I've got a very fat book, full of heavy math on thermodynamics, in half of which the author goes on and on about how this is all impossible and things like non Maxwellian distributions can't exist and so on and on, and everything is truly random (mostly true at large enough time and space scales) - and then goes on to describe lasers, which can't happen without a large population inversion of energy states first. Go figure. Humans seem to be pretty good at holding conflicting ideas in their heads and never seeking resolution if it'd be some work to do, is all I can guess.

Isaac Asimov wrote a cool detective story about a guy who made a Maxwell's demon for gas and killed people by replacing a window in their room with it...I forget the title, but it was good fun, and reasonably plausible. He thought up a molecule of rings that weren't attached all the way around that acted like flap-doors, or one way valves, and only hot air molecules could push the flap open...I think it doesn't work out re the numbers balance for most ways you could do that (takes 5 or more carbons to make a ring and that's getting heavy) but...interesting other concept.
 
Last edited:
Rossi / ecat in the news again:
...
What everyone wanted was something that Rossi has been promising was about to happen for months: An independent test by third parties who were credible. This report was delayed several times to the point where many were wondering whether it was all nothing more than what we have come to see as Rossi’s usual “jam tomorrow” promises. But much to my, and I suspect many other people’s surprise, a report by credible, independent third parties is exactly what we got.

Published on May 16, the paper titled “Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device” would appear to deliver what we wanted.

The paper was authored by Giuseppe Levi of Bologna University, Bologna, Italy; Evelyn Foschi, Bologna, Italy; Torbjörn Hartman, Bo Höistad, Roland Pettersson and Lars Tegnér of Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden; and Hanno Essén, of the Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden. While some of these people have previously been public in their support of Rossi and the E-Cat they are all serious academics with reputations to lose and the paper is detailed and thorough.
...
While a few commentators have raised criticisms concerning how the measurements were made and sources of error others have argued that the energy produced is so significant even knocking off an order of magnitude on either axis still portrays a process with insanely valuable output.

This is not, of course, the last word or even one anywhere near the end of this story but unless this is one of the most elaborate hoaxes in scientific history it looks like the world may well be about to change. How quick will depend solely on Rossi.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgib...device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/
 
I'll have to look into it further, but so far...looks just like the usual stuff - someone without the real knowledge; Rossi's claiming trade secrets even on the waveform used in a heater to "preheat" the junk, for example - stupid - heat is heat in a resistance heater, for crying out loud. No way it's special due to the shape of the waveform, the thermal mass smooths all that out. Can you tell the difference in a resistance heater between AC power input and DC? I can't.

I do know a reputable scientist who tried to dupe his results with available knowledge about the thing, and failed. I trust this guy, and he used techniques to test that are accurate and accepted for checking.

Hey, I want it to work - I want to see the "world be saved" however it happens. But I just don't see anything like proof here. It's not how science works to keep the crucial stuff a secret. If it's been working as long as he claims already - why isn't it all over the planet, working, and making him rich already? Changing excess heat to power is at least conceptually trivial, yet we see no working plant that does so - and it's not like people with money wouldn't pay for it if they were convinced it worked with a real demo they could actually watch.

So far, I can't seem to find out what isotope of nickel he puts in (secret catalyst aside), and what isotope of Cu he gets out - there might not even be a theoretical positive net energy balance as far as you can find out from the data that's been revealed. Most nickel isotopes are more stable (more binding energy in the nucleus) than most copper isotopes, eg, converting one to another by adding protons would actually cost you energy - and adding a proton to some nickel isotope might not get you a stable copper one anyway. Of course, if the result is unstable and radioactive, that'd be extra gain - but he's claiming no such thing... So it's not looking good, but it'd take me hours to run all those numbers, and I haven't bothered yet, it just seems too unlikely to work for me to divert the effort to that.

I suppose in the interest of looking at if this is even theoretically possible I should, but I haven't.

For all nuclear reactions we use the concept of "Q". We are changing potential energy of loosely bound nuclei to a tighter-bound nucleus plus kinetic energy. I'm not even sure at this point that it's possible with the reactants he's using.
You could think of it like this - a loosely bound nucleus has a poor packing factor. When you go to a more tightly bound one - you get the energy of a collapsing rubber band, kind of (in this case, the rubber band is the strong nuclear force), by letting it relax to a tighter packing. To find out if that is even possible, you'd have to know what is input, and it's binding energy, and what is output, and its binding energy.
Since there are several isotopes of each of Ni and Cu - it takes awhile to figure out if this is even a net-positive game in theory, much less practice.

For example, what I do here is fuse deuterium, the loosest bound nucleus there is, into various by products that are more tightly bound to get net energy from each reaction - and my problem is getting a higher fraction of those to occur - most of the energy I put in does not result in any interaction at all, but at least the theory is there for that if I could. He, for example weighs less than two D's do - and that's the mass that is converted to energy. (the more common reactions to T plus a proton, or 3He plus a neutron give around 3-4 mega electron volts energy per, the ideal one, straight to normal 4He, gives 17 or so). In this case, all the protons stay protons, and the neutrons are all still neutrons - there's no radioactive decay involve that would change one to another, just a different, more efficient packing of what you started with. Is this true for the Rossi thing? I haven't worked it out, but the stability of all those high Z atoms is nearly the same, so there's not a ton of potential in this approach at first glance.

This chart might help explain.
Binding.jpg

Normal fusion works like this - we start with that very low dot on the left, and try to get to that peak just to the right (the low dot is D, the high one is helium). We have to put in a lot of energy to force D's together - because nuclei have charge that repels, and it gets worse fast the more charge they have. Trying to push a proton into a highly charged Ni takes a hell of a lot more input energy than what I'm trying to do - not a good sign. And note how flat the curve is in the area of nickel/iron/copper - not much output energy available vs what it takes to force a proton into one.

Fission is another story entirely, as it takes almost no input energy to push an uncharged neutron into something real heavy (right side of curve) which then splits up into higher binding energy stuff in the middle of the curve. Then all that stuff has excess neutrons, and it decays releasing even more energy (beta decay usually, where a neutron becomes a lighter proton, which gives you extra due to E=MC^2). The curve is slightly misleading, as it's scaled per nucleon...so fission actually gives more energy than would be obvious here since the denominator is big, and the chart is scaled by that. Typical fission energy is about 200 Mev per atom fissioned, but we're working with a lot more nucleons per atom there. It's actually better at the low end per, but we need more energy to push charged stuff together (which is what Rossi is claiming to be doing) with even the light stuff - and he's claiming to do it with heavy stuff.
So it looks dumb on the face of it....it already takes literally about one tone to push two protons close enough together for long enough for a fusion to happen - and protons are real light, so it's significant energy. Pushing one into something with far more repulsive charge is lots harder...which is why in fusion, though the p+B into 3 He's looks good until you find out that it takes much more input energy to make happen, due to the higher charge of the boron. Now, Rossi is trying it with something far heavier and more charged yet, and only using a few eV (heat) to make it happen. Looks pretty ridiculous on the face of it, but you never know...

He's trying to work with the flat part in the middle of the curve above. For fusion, there's just no there there. Good luck with that.
 
Extraordinary if true. However, too much smoke, not enough mirrors.
 
Whew. 30 seconds into reading that paper I've already found a factor of 3 error in assumptions. I'll presume the sloppy measurement errors continue throughout. Actually I found several serious errors (lower than amateur grade work) in the first page or so.

They are:
Use of a thermal camera that doesn't work right (wavelength cutoff) at those temperatures - they are completely missing most of the picture with a camera that cuts off in the low IR and doesn't see "orange" at all. So for whatever reason, they skipped taking data that would show the truth.

Why use an expensive thermal camera (several thousand at least) that doesn't work in the correct temperature range (this one was designed for room type temperatures and misses the shorter wavelengths of "orange hot" entirely, and cuts off many octaves below that), rather than dirt-cheap (a few bucks) thermocouples that are accurate? You tell me. I'll stick with my own scientifically wild-assed guess on that for now.

Second, they are assuming the e of steel to be 1.0 - a perfect black-body emitter of heat. That's far from the true number, which is closer to .2, leading to a 5x error on the optimistic side on top of the camera intrinsic error. Crap, they're even using a wristwatch for a timer with a laptop with microsecond accuracy sitting there...this is bad science presented with enough baffle-gab to confuse the usual forbes reporter...
(and all laymen)

It goes on and on as I read the paper. There's a reason this is on arxiv, as there are no referees there. You can put any BS on that preprint server.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.3913v2.pdf is the paper for those who might know how to read this kind of thing.


Which is not to say my own observations prove this is junk - it really does take a lot more than the power input they claimed to heat a SS pipe that big that hot in air (and if you do, some of it burns and makes heat that way, which is why you need inert gas to weld the stuff). But as they mention, crucial data were not available to them, as the contents of the cylinder were removed in a secret location and they had to accept what they were told from there for example...O will say that just about zero people in the real world use 3 phase input power (no matter what they convert it to) for sub-kw gear - it's a waste of money and hassle. We're talking power like a foot warmer heater here, as input if they are telling the truth. None of those are 3 phase, since they don't need to be.

But why the waste of time to show that the temp went up after the power input increased? Is this not the case of every heating mechanism on earth due to thermal mass of what's being heated? A sign of desperately trying to show something. Even a fool knows water doesn't boil the instant you put a fire under it, it takes time for the temp to go up, even though the flame temp is far hotter than 100c. Duh.

I love the statement that these kinds of errors are generally accepted in calorimetry.
No, they are not, they'd be laughed out of the business.

This is a non proof as far as real science goes. Not saying that a real proof could not exist, but this ain't it.

Like I've said, we need theoretical proof it could even work, but that's tedious as hell.
Here, for example, is a list of all the isotopes of nickel and their atomic weights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_nickel
And one for copper:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_copper
And one for hydrogen (which isn't 1.0 due to the normalization chemists find handy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_hydrogen

Presumably, you could limit yourself to common isotopes that are stable, narrowing the search some, since they claim it's all stable stuff.

Your mission, should you decide to accept it (and we'll disavow any knowledge, like mission impossible) is to find an isotope of nickel, which, when the weight of one hydrogen is added results in an isotope of copper that weighs less than the sum of the Ni and H does - then you have a theoretical basis for energy production...if you can't, there isn't. Period - no matter what magic you invoke that allows you to use heat (less than 1 electron volt/atom at these temperatures) to push a proton into a nickel nucleus (which takes 100's of thousands of eV energy per, or maybe a million, I'd have to calc that - but pushing a 1 close to another 1 takes 100's of thousands, a one into a 28 against coulomb electrostatic repulsion will take a lot more unless there's some magic involved - not impossible, just very unlikely; no one has ever seen it before).

Wonder why NOT ONE PAPER mentions this, and which isotopes are theorized to be doing it? I can hazard a guess...but you can see why I haven't spent the few hours trying every possible combo to see if there's one that gives net mass loss/energy gain.

So, I'm still calling BS for now, and if anything, this makes me more confident I'm right in doing so, sadly - I'd rather be wrong and this be "the answer".
 
Thanks for sharing your insight DCF. I'm sure your criticisms of their tools/methodology will be corrected in the 6 month long experiment they are planning for this summer. :paperbag:
 
Wow, it takes a while to read your posts, with at least an attempt to understand the content, Fusor! Much appreciated, that you are willing to share your knowledge. Cheers

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
Thank you Fusor

as you say, we so badly want there to be an energy revolution breakthrough ........

and we also seem willing to accept the idea that there are people who do not want this and have the ability to ensure we continue to use hydrocarbons until theres no more profit in em.

and all those thousands of copyrights that apparently got pulled for national security reasons, or got bought up by big oil ............

I truly appreciate your taking the time to try and splain things to us heavy metal lovers :cheers:
 
Well, I'm doing my own part there - it's been a busy day, but nope, I'm not closer to my own real gain either ( I am at ~1.00001(2), which ain't so hot - need about 2.x to get real power out - but I've moved that last 1 up 4 decades in two years...so I'm not crying).

I did make a kind of breakthrough in terms of materials that look like they'll live "forever" in this nasty environment (hydrogen at effectively a few million degrees), but they have their own issues too - I skimped on the stuff I bought (and at that it cost me half a $k) but it looks like the BN I got will indeed withstand fusion conditions - and still be a good insulator, which has been the bane of my own project from the get-go. Now I get to spend about $1.5k on the "right" grade and size, and I think that major engineering problem is solved.

And now onto the real deal in my own lab. I've (re) discovered a few conservation laws (CPT/spin) that all other fusion approaches ignore, and if I'm running my math right, fixing it so I do set up the conditions to obey these laws gets me there, though not with the current simple apparatus. I can hear it now, if it works - hell, we've known these laws since the 1930's. But yeah - you fusion guys have been ignoring them the entire time, so I fart in your general direction when you sneer that I didn't really "invent" anything, just make it work...you know, like they didn't.

Been a busy day today.
http://www.coultersmithing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&p=4433#p4430

And I don't keep any of it secret - it's all copy-left. Because if it works, the money involved paints a big bulls-eye on your back, and I don't need that, or a trillion bucks.
The speaking tour alone, for getting it to work, is enough for me, in spades.

Looks like I just have to control the quantum spin of my reactants before putting in the energy to accelerate them at one another...this isn't even new tech, much less new science, but no one's tried it all together before. I'll be doing that over the next year or so, if the creek don't rise, etc.

Truly, I hope someone gets this working. It doesn't have to be me to make me happy. But none of the approaches I see being worked on out there hold out much hope - there's always a gotcha that looks insurmountable with every other approach I've seen so far, and I look hard, believe me - after all, I might catch a hint that would be helpful here...My own work is just focused (in this case literally for beam collisions) on something I can see the existing theory working out for - where nothing else is, everything else requires something new that does not yet exist, theoretically.

Even the ITER tokomak boys now realize they need a material that can live through 16 MeV neutrons hitting it in high flux - they turn stainless steel to dust in minutes at that flux level - no material that exists or theoretically could that can handle that.

Yet it took them two decades to figure that one out - note chemical bonds are in the couple of eV strength level....all of them. Millions? It ain't happenin. But to get to theoretical gain, those idiots want to use deuterium/tritium fuel, which gives that energy level of neutrons (about 20 times what a fission reactor has to stand, and at 100's of times the flux per watt out a fission reactor needs). Doh!

Sure, we don't know it all, that seems like a given - but - nothing measured by reputable scientists and replicated in more than one lab so far has shown us current theory is wrong! - it's just not very predictive - it always explains things after the fact just fine, though. So I'm just going with the flow there, in my own work...

After all, a man's gotta have a hobby - or a dream. That's mine.

Edit - long before I get to net energy gain, I do get to significant transmutaion levels. So making PM's is a possibility, but you know what? There's something far more valuable out there in extreme shortage right now - Tc-99, the isotope used for pet scans. I can make that...the Chalk River reactor in Canada that used to make it all for the world is shut down permanently, and hospitals are scrambling to buy multi million dollar cyclotrons to make it now in microgram amounts for about $50-100k/milligram total costs. I can beat that NOW. But hey, even with simple improvements, I see about a 10x cost reduction just from what I have already...so, not quite Au-197, but....
 
Last edited:
I will focus my intention, to visualise a good outcome for you Fusor.

And huge respect for open sourcing, even though you see the sense in it.

Can i book a seat at your first speaking tour date ?
 
"Can i book a seat at your first speaking tour date ?"

Hell, I'll buy your plane ticket - there's a lot we could talk about I think. Let's just get there first. Looks like we dump another half a million into this (self funded) to get there, and about a year or two. Hope my stinkin rich partner can swallow that (without blowing his opsec, man you should see HIS stack, frigging wow - he lurks here too), I'd prefer not to beg bucks to speed it up, because one thing about this alt energy/fusion biz - so far everyone that has (other than the big science boys begging from taxpayers) has been a fraud - no exceptions, and I don't want to be painted with that brush. At least my partner lets me follow my scientific nose without interference, just asks really smart "dumb" questions - and that helps more than most would realize all by itself.

If I have to, I'll monetize making medical isotopes with an intermediate version first. But that's totally a side-track that would slow down the real thing, so while I keep it in mind, I'm avoiding it at present.
 
this showed up in Chris Martensons weekly newsletter -

In summary, the performance of the E-Cat reactor is remarkable. We have a device giving heat energy compatible with nuclear transformations, but it operates at low energy and gives neither nuclear radioactive waste nor emits radiation. From basic general knowledge in nuclear physics this should not be possible.
Nevertheless we have to relate to the fact that the experimental results from our test show heat production beyond chemical burning, and that the E-Cat fuel undergoes nuclear transformations. It is certainly most unsatisfying that these results so far have no convincing theoretical explanation, but the experimental results cannot be dismissed or ignored just because of lack of theoretical understanding. Moreover, the E-Cat results are too conspicuous not to be followed up in detail. In addition, if proven sustainable in further tests the E-Cat invention has a large potential to become an important energy source. Further investigations are required to guide the interpretational work, and one needs in particular as a first step detailed knowledge of all parameters affecting the E-Cat operation


http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LuganoReportSubmit.pdf
 
Back
Top Bottom