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Old 12-04-2012, 12:48 PM   #41
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One needs only to lookk to Haiti to understand what happens when a population refuses to educate themselves and live sustainably within the carrying capacity of their region/state/area/whatever.

Haiti has been a basket case for a long time now, and with nearly zero GDP beyond "releif", the country would devolve in to civil war and population would plummet as a result of rampant disease and rampant starvation. There are many areas that have, as a result of removal of disease vectors, vaccinations, etc. grown well beyond their carrying capacity and directly in to mass starvation. Although they are literally walking skeletons, they continue to have baby after baby, then ask for help because they not only cannot feed them, but they couldn't feed the previous three or four. The problem nearly every time is the absence of education and refusal to understand that it is not only stupid but immoral to continue to bring children in to the world only to watch them starve and die an early death because of your stupidity and ignorance.

I for one, am all for allowing these countries to be left alone to live their lives wrapped in the cuddly and warm blanket of islam. If the seventh century is where they want to dwell, who are we to make them do anything different.

When the british, French and Dutch "ran Africa", the people had a significantly higher rate of education and health. Now, it has seriously devolved. Case and point is Zimbabwe [formerly Rhodesia] which at one time was a major food provider with a giant net-surplus, net-export of food items. Enter Robert Mugabe, exit farmers. What they have now is land that has been fallow so long it is returning to wild, with trees where wide expanses of fertile ground was farmed.

This is what happens when you take from the people who build and operate and give to those who "deserve" the land more. When the balloon goes up, I expect to have to fiercely defend what is mine from expropriation through force. You all should prepare to do the same.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:00 PM   #42
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I think you should give me some of your land Ancona, as I will manage it more efficiently than you ......... (-;
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:39 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Jetstream View Post:
You cannot disagree with something you know nothing about. That is a philosophical impossibility.
If something sounds nonsensical to you then you are applying previously gained knowledge to the topic but you have to know enough of the topic to make a judgment that it does not correlate with that knowledge.
.
Not at all; I can disagree without knowing anything else about the subject, apart from what my adversary has said, provide my reasoning, why I disagree, and await to stand corrected - that is not the same as knowing NOTHING about subject, in some abstract, philosophical sense. But I think you get my point here, and trying to argue for the sake of arguing. (BTW, I still await for my original arguments re overpopulation to be addressed - instead of going sideways, and in some kind of unwarranted philosophical drift ;-)

Originally Posted by Jetstream View Post:
The debates over PM and banks and financial matters are profitable ONLY when we are studied on the issue, and willing to learn what someone with more experience or better grasp of the situation has.
... well, why don't you listen to Krugman and go and spend, spend, spend, in such case?

Originally Posted by Jetstream View Post:
But we cannot properly disagree with something that we know nothing about, and have no previous knowledge that would influence the subject at hand.
Yep, well, that is what central bankers, politicians, and their economic advisors, just like all other high priests, and guardians of "one and only truth" would like us all to believe in. But we gamma rats are tough nuts to crack that way.



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Old 12-04-2012, 04:03 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by bushi View Post:
(BTW, I still await for my original arguments re overpopulation to be addressed - instead of going sideways, and in some kind of unwarranted philosophical drift ;-)
Out of respect to the owners of this forum I'm going to let the topic rest. Why?

Because the argument put forth is that the world has too high a population for the amount of food it produces, ergo, we need to depopulate the world.

My response is that this is a question that belongs as much in the ethical / moral realm as in the science (and I personally do not see them at odds with each other, by the way)

In other words, if one wants to argue sheer numbers without taking into account the ethics of the taking of human life - for whatever purpose at all - then I really don't have much to say because that person has, in my mind ruled out the most important part of the equation which is the 'right and wrong' of the matter.

If you read my post about the various causes of poverty you would see that I am not defending a feed everybody for every reason, in fact I have shown that it can be ethically wrong to support the poor if their poverty is itself caused by unethical and immoral purposes. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that stuff, you know.

Anyway, I have said my piece, and wish you well and will carry on. Which in practical terms today means sitting at the side of my dying mother and giving her comfort.

Of course, if we're just talking numbers here, maybe I should just push her out of bed and it would be one less mouth to feed.

Edit: (I just thought that one day someone lacking either in IQ or the ability to know the difference between a serious statement and sarcasm, might happen upon this comment and think wrongly of my closing statement. So ... for such person ... it was sarcasm).

Now I feel better.
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Last edited by Jetstream; 12-04-2012 at 04:28 PM. Reason: added part in italics
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:17 PM   #45
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Powerful stuff Jetstream.

Respect to you for what you are doing.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:20 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by bushi :
I still await for my original arguments re overpopulation to be addressed
First you have to prove the world is overpopulated.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:52 AM   #47
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jetstream - regardless of the difference of opinions here - my best in your difficult situation goes to you and your family. You have much more important things on your head (and heart) now, than some stupid internet discussion, with some stupid anonymous adversary from half a world away, so peace, my friend.

Originally Posted by mike View Post:
First you have to prove the world is overpopulated.
World? maybe yes, maybe not yet. I've seen enough of documentaries/papers that would support overpopulation thesis, but of course, these can be always questioned, and secondly, I don't feel the need to prove this point at all costs.

Some countries? Oh yes, they ARE overpopulated, some of them - to the extreme. Reason for that - again, clash of the advanced technological civilization, bringing in goodies like infant vaccines into cultures that are completely incompatible with the children/infants survival rates, that western civilization has achieved. With all the dire consequences caused by that clash.
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Last edited by bushi; 12-05-2012 at 09:55 AM.
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