Platinum, Palladium, etc.

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DoChenRollingBearing

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New member Bearing would be interested in pmbug's friends' views on Pt and Pd.

Disclosure: I have platinum and a tiny holding of palladium. In terms of $ value, GOLD is by far my largest PM holding, well over 50% of my PMs.

Pt is used as a catalyst (including diesel engines) and jewelry.

Pd is used as a catalyst as well, but not for the important diesel engine markets.

Platinum Eagles are VERY hard to find for me, except for numismatic proofs at APMEX.
 
JMO, but there doesn't seem to be quite the same market for physical platinum and palladium as there is for gold and silver. As long as the :doodoo: never hits the fan, and my local coin shop is buying and selling them, I would consider them for investment purposes. But for a hedge against catastrophe? Not so much. $.02
 
I tend to shy away from the less common metals. Not that they won't hold their value, but I prefer the more recognizable items. I wouldn't mind having a little, but Au and Ag come first. Granted, I'm new at this so those seem safer to me.
 
A disconnect between developments in global financial markets and the real economy has occurred, according to David Brown – CEO of mining giant Impala Platinum. In a speech at the company's annual general meeting yesterday, Brown stated that he thought platinum’s current spot price of around $1,593 per troy ounce represented an undervaluation of the metal. He reached this conclusion after a recent visit to Japanese platinum and automobile traders to assess current sales activities. In the case of copper this view is shared by a growing number of market analysts. Mining giant Freeport-McMoRan has been forced to cut production at its Grasberg mine in Indonesia due to strikes. Analysts are warning that this could result in supply shortages in the copper sector in the coming months.


Although he thinks that at its current price, platinum is clearly undervalued, Brown believes that platinum will be stuck in a trading range between $1,450 and $1,650 per troy ounce for the next two to three months. Gold's premium over platinum still amounts to around 10% after the sharp price correction in precious metals markets. The premium of one troy ounce of gold has never been as high in history, indicating growing tensions in financial and credit markets. Brown added that the debt crisis has led to investors preferring gold over platinum. However, the platinum price has upward potential following its correction phase, with Brown forecasting platinum to rise to $2,000 per troy ounce by the end of 2012. His forecast was not only supported by the continuing capital flight into the precious metals sector from investors concerned about inflation, but also based on better than expected business activities among platinum and automotive traders. The order books of most dealers are still filling up, meaning that the demand for platinum is rising. Similar statements were made by the world's third-largest platinum producer Lonmin in early October. According to Lonmin, the demand for platinum is picking up again and will continue to increase in the coming quarters. Platinum has yet to equal or exceed its pre-Lehman early 2008 price of over $2,000 per ounce.
...

More: http://www.24hgold.com/english/news...08G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Goldmoney

I'm not so sure that demand for new auto sales are going to continue to hold steady so I'm a bit more cautious about prospects for platinum with regards to industrial demand.
 
If we get a public QE3 these kinds of metals will be good plays for 2-3 months+ but your best bet is with gold and silver IMO..
 
Platinum is for optimists!

I read (probably at ZH) that platinum is for optimists!

Since I cannot predict the future (and if any of you have ever read any of my comments on my remarkably terrible results the few times I went speculating), I cannot say for sure that a CRASH will happen. It just seems so likely with our financial problems.

So, as I have reasonably good holdings of Au and Ag, I have diversified into platinum as well, with a tiny bit of palladium. DIVERSIFICATION is one of my many middle names...

If the world economy ever gets back on its feet, then Chinese and Indian demand for cars (and chemicals) will soar. That means Pt and Pd will soar in price as well. THIS is the case for Pt and Pd being for optimists, hey, you never know.
 
HEY!

I would like to fish for new opinions re platinum and palladium!

Firstly, we have new members since I last posted.

Secondly, because platinum vs. gold has sunk to a new low recently.

My holdings of GOLD will always be much higher than the other PMs combined, but I wonder if there is additional value in diversifying more into these two. My Trail Guide FOFOA (and his other fans) do not much like the other PMs, believing that Au will be the one that blasts off (with considerable logic, that is my belief as well, but I do not see that as INEVITABLE).

I noted at kitco.com that RHODIUM is very low priced relative to the sometimes astronomical numbers we have seen in the past (it peaked at a majestic $10,000 / oz three (?) years ago). kitco also SELLS rhodium, in some kind of sealed container, to my knowledge they are the only convenient supplier of Rh for pikers like me...

Your thoughts on Pt, Pd and Rh would be much appreciated!
 
Rhodium:
Historically rhodium has rarely been lower priced than gold. In fact, it had a long term correlation to gold prices which was not 1:1, but clearly visable. Especially during gold and silver bull markets (1970s, 2000s), it more or less followed the direction of the bigger PM markets. See here
rd72-79.gif

rd80-89.gif

rd90-99.gif

rd00-09.gif

here are some fundamentals:

- UBS is launching physically backed rhodium certificates next year, said to be 1 t (not confirmed). Global annual production is just 25 tonnes, so this market is ultra tight. The spike in 2008 was caused by RBS launching a certificate plus strikes in South African platinum mines.
- Once these miners experience strikes again - a question of when not if - watch rhodium go to the moon.
- The car industry is the primary user of rhodium (mainly catalysts). Maybe they´ll have two or three tough years tough years with low demand. But car purchasing in the BRICs is exploding. This is a long term trend.

You can buy rhodium coins here:
http://www.rhodiumcoin.com/
 
Platinum also is nose-diving today. At some point, those of us who think that MAYBE "they" will work everything out OK (10% chance?), that then Pt may be a buy here at the high $1300s.

I AGREE that the overwhelming bulk of PMs ought to be in gold, and hold some silver too.

But, if we "Boomer Doomers" are wrong... Then Pt takes care of us! Until nano-technologies come along anyway...
 
I just wish I could afford to buy platinum and platinum group metals. Revenues are so far off this year that there are to be NO bonuses. Boo
 
I was considering purchasing a bit of platinum, given that the platinum:gold ratio is near all-time lows. However, I was floored by the high premiums for platinum as compared to gold:

Jan 13, 2012 prices:
Gold spot = $1641
Platinum spot = $1492

Apmex:
1 oz Gold Eagle: $1711 (= spot +70, or spot + 4.2%)
1 oz Platinum Eagle: $1771 (= spot + 279, or spot + 18.7%)

1 oz Pamp Suisse Gold Bar $1691 (= spot + 50, or spot + 3.0%)
1 oz Pamp Suisse Plat. Bar $1602 (= spot + 110, or spot + 7.4%)

Tulving:
Platinum bars available for as low as 3.3% above spot, BUT for > 10oz order.


The Platinum/Gold ratio is near all-time lows, but for a purchase of $5k or less, I am can't bring myself to swallow the high premiums for platinum. Thoughts anyone? Would anyone else pay high platinum premiums in hopes of platinum making a strong comeback in relation to gold?
 
This discussion on different metals started making me think about silver. I have fairly equal weighting w/ slightly more gold. I just split my bets. I seem to go constantly back and forth about which one is better.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/hommel080104.html

This Hommel wrote this article a while ago in 2004 and makes some good pts which most are still relevant today. How people like gold because it has more value therefore has more demand and therefore has more value. kinda circular logic.

But then these Rhodium and Platnium prices started to make me think. Is it possible that gold could go up dramaticly but the multiple to silver expands from 55 here? That obviously would be bad for silver.

Logically it does not make sense to me but if it was just based on pure rarity silver would not be 55 cheaper than gold now.

curious your thoughts here. Conceptually I feel the multiple should contract as more investment demand comes in but I guess anything can happen.
 
escobar, I think that diversification among precious metals is a great idea. Your present holdings seem well balanced IMO. More oz of silver, but much more $-value in gold represents most of my PMs.

I have read a lot of viewpoints on whether gold is better or silver. I do not know silver well enough to back up the claims of many that we are running out of silver and that its price could reach parity (1:1) with gold (ZH-ers "tmosley" and "tekhneek" say so). That is certainly not my view.

FOFOA writes that silver will be left behind when gold blasts off to "$55,000". For several reasons, but his explanations are long and intricate. I believe him to be correct though. That we will have a serious one-time quantum jump in the price of PHYSICAL gold as the "paper gold market" burns... He makes a compelling case, but you have to put in the mental energy to read his long columns. I would start in October 2009 and read forward.

fofoa.blogspot.com

Re platinum and palladium, these metals have different uses and degrees of "moneyness". I own a fair amount of Pt, because that is the metal for optimists (hey I want to cover that base in case we are wrong about where the world is heading...). I say Pt is for optimists, because if China gets rocking & rolling again, they will likely use a lot of Pt to keep their air semi-clean. More car sales worldwide, more Pt used.
 
thx ill take a look. I guess I do find the silver story compelling. Anectodally seems much easier to get people started buying a silver coin vs a gold coin because of cost. I feel like this has to play a roll. as more people catch on i think they will be attracted to silver because they feel they get more.

from a a purely value basis I see no way to explain why gold should be 55 times more expensive than silver. Both have a monetary history.hugo salinas is trying to introduce a silver coin to mexico.

i guess to make things simple the bet from here is the multiple will contract from 55x over the long term. guess time will tell. in general when assets rally the spread of similar assets tends to shrink not widen.
 
Historically prices were fixed by governments when their economies were backed by gold/silver. This was why all the rules were changed, to benefit fiat in order to expand the economies faster than the reserve of gold/silver could be increased.

Here we are now. Knowing what we know, I agree with much of what is being said. People will buy what they can afford. Every case is unique. Several of us have seen a trend of physical silver slowly becoming a bit harder and harder to find. By and large, that must be due to the cost per ounce. If a true and known shortage on silver comes to pass, the premiums will increase as well. Bottom line, cost will increase, and our investments will appreciate.

Historically governments used gold to settle business between other sovereigns. The silver was everyday currency for the things we buy today. Some traditions are hard to break, and some never die. Regardless of where the ratio goes, I will continue to buy what I can with fiat until fiat is no longer.
 
If the world economy ever gets back on its feet, then Chinese and Indian demand for cars (and chemicals) will soar. That means Pt and Pd will soar in price as well. .

I just saw this article a few days ago related to why Deutsche Bank thinks that Pd will out perform gold, silver and platinum this year. I'm not sure if I'm on board with that (with the state of the economy, I was always under the impression Pd and Pt were for optimists as well) but the article makes several positive remarks about the demand in the chinese auto-industry. IMO It doesn't hurt to diversify even if it's only a small amount.

here's the link:

http://igoldprice.net/palladium-likely-to-be-the-best-performing-precious-metal-this-year-deutsche-bank/
 
I think we have seen ample circumstances over the last year or so to give credence to the idea that the physical silver market truly is under duress. I expect that it will see a violent breakout at some point when it overruns the paper markets.

The issue with gold (as I see it) is that, being primarily owned by central banks, it will be the primary focus of their attention in maintaining confidence in thier fiat/debt money scheme.

In the end, I expect both metals to make owners glad they acquired them.
 
I like DoChen's diversity (everything in moderation, though - including moderation). Silver is more volatile, and perhaps will be in shorter supply than gold at some point.

For certain, more people know about and understand the value of gold and silver as a means of exchange than the platinum-group metals, but those are also dual use. While autos take the lions share of Pt and Pd, other industry uses them as catalysts too, and I use both in the physics lab, and some in chemistry (non corroding anodes and hydrogen filters).

They all have their place. Most of the others are more volatile than gold, so in some sort of "barbell" strategy, they'd be the wild ones. Perhaps some sort of dollar cost averaging formula could be built and backtested to see if that wouldn't be better across them all than with just the one, or the two main PMs.

Say, if I had x $ a month to put in, perhaps I'd go something like
60% gold
20% silver
10% Pt
10% Pd

Just to toss out some numbers - I'm sure some others would be better, and maybe some dynamic adjustment should be made if one is extra deep in the "BTFD" range.
I know I've made plenty of money trading Pd in trading ranges...

While nano tech is likely to reduce the need for some of these in catalysts, there are cases where it definitely won't - because even metamaterials that might be as good as or better catalysts at room temperature won't stand the gaff for high temperature processes. And it is very unlikely that further tech will get the need for Pt and Pd as catalysts down below the current minimum - a mono molecular layer...we're there.

There's no question that the Pt group metals are less abundant, yet used more in things than gold. No one's making catalytic converters out of other PM's, or using them in major chemical synth or refining (all of 'em are used in relay contacts, though). It's just that they don't have the historical interest that gold has as a universal medium of exchange.

Remember, even gold is only money because so many people believe it is. Means nothing to a fish.
 
I put together an excel sheet a few years back that tracked the 4 PMs against each other, in terms of weighted moving averages (amplifying short-medium term swings, eliminating long trend) and indicated the most 'undervalued' at any point in time. This could be used to exchange metals for one another - swap some %age the most undervalued for the least, or to help pick 'best buy' that month.

On the plus side it was great for ratcheting up the metals by weight. On the other hand it could only be done efficiently a few times a year, if that - and it's relatively costly to do it with physical.
 
h4, you should consider updating that spreadsheet for us and sharing it!

Next time I have a Moneybomb, maybe I will buy some Pt with some (though the Eagles in Pt are very hard to find).

@ DCFusor upthread

Your 60%/20%/10%/10% (Au/Ag/Pt/Pd) looks good. In my case I own more Pt than that and less Pd. I just like platinum! Sitting there all nice and heavy... My percentages would be very roughly 75%/10%/23%/2% (Au/Ag/Pt/Pd).
 
DCRB - Ok, sure - I'll go dig out the spreadsheet and tidy it up. Will link it here later.

BTW can anyone recommend a URL which quotes PMs on a daily basis, where the page isn't reorganised every week, the numbers aren't quoted as IMAGES and there aren't countermeasures which block http scraping?

The spreadsheet methods I used involved a lot of scraping (histories from Yahoo/Google finance, spot prices quoted on various pages) and it tended to be very unreliable for the sites I used. If I can use a better source I can probably make it more reliable. (1-in-5 times using it, the links would be broken and quotes all messed up).
 
PMBug - thanks, will try to incorporate it now...


[update]
...well that seems to work fine. I still need to find a source for USD/EUR/GBP quotes but that's a bit easier, and I can just use the Yahoo price history / previous day in the meantime...

The other problem is the stuff I did to munge the various graphs into GBP 'space' so I'll have to simplify it a bit to get a $ view on everything.

Anyway the four relative valuation graphs look like they are working ok. Here's a snapshot.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12947585/relval.png

The idea is to buy deeply into metals that drop a notch or more below the central axis, and sell (if you're a seller!) those which climb a notch or more above it. Since the measurement is short-term-weighted, it won't indicate that Platinum is currently undervalued. However it's easy enough to produce a mid-term version of the same thing that would show this (This version was really for reacting to day to day changes at a glance).

I'll link the spreadsheet once I have fixed the remaining gripes.
 
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silver supply?

This thread has caused me to rethink my silver allocation. I havnt changed it but trying to get a better understanding. My concern is 2011 saw a big increase in avg silver price. Will there be a wave of new mines and as a result supply coming on board over the next 5 yrs? Gold supply has increased but has not increased on a % basis as much as silver.

Anyone seen any good research discussing expected supply dynamics going fwd.

Dont get me wrong I still like it long term just wonder how elastic the supply compenent is. Guess key factor will be if investment demand continues to grow rapidly or even accelerates.
 
Escobar,
Think about this for a minute. Chavez has built quite the coalition in the region, and as a result he has emboldened others to follow his lead and nationalize natural resources. This leads to reduced efficiency at those facilities as well paid people are replaced with lower paid people with the best of intentions, but much less experience. Couple that with American resistance to PM mining overall, and the fact that getting a hole started takes at least TEN YEARS because of the EPA requirements. Add to that new and increasing Chinese, Indian and miscellaneous Asian demand, and there simply is not enough silver. Just last year, the demand for silver eagles alone, outstripped US supply. Now, add all the demand for every single other type of silver bullion and you get the picture. Folks are starting to realize that fiat is crap and the ETF's for the most part [read: SLV] are backed by a dry hump instead of silver, and you have the makings for the biggest short squeeze in the history of commodity futures trading, and one that could bring the paper industry to a halt.

That my friend, is why I am long physical silver.

If you can't hold it, you don't own it.
 
@ h4rdware, many thanks in putting out easy to use data for us!


@ ancona and escobar:

My thinking is (but I do not KNOW) is that all 4 PMs are going to have their little dynamics that drive them each a little differently than the others (just what h4 is looking at actually). So, I hold them all, though my Pd is very small.

Re silver mines, while I do not think that Chavez (et al) can do TOO MUCH re silver, ancona is RIGHT about how long it takes to get a new mine up and running.


@ anyone here! I desperately need a Silver Expert (and preferably a Silver Bull) to write "The Case for Silver" at my blog! If you are an expert and would like to do it (hey, become "famous", lol), pm me!
 
Ok, here it is. Temporary link only, until I get organised.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12947585/pmgraphs3.xlsx

Be warned - it takes a few seconds to 'wake up' because it has to pull down a bunch of price histories and do some stuff with that before the graphs will refresh. Excel jolts and twitches while this is going on. It does eventually settle down.

The charts have been corrected to place the most recent 'day' on the right, the way most charts are (but not Excel charts, by default!).

The main sheets are the first four: $view, £view, Au.Ag, Pt.Pd
The other sheets are calculation buffers containing the math or scraped sources - ignore them.

Any questions, just ask.

Notes: There is no Euro view yet. At the rate things are going though, it may not be needed! Only gold shows a currency basket chart - I could add this for the others, but I have other things to do right now. The spreadsheet will nag you to save changes when you close it, because it treats fresh web-scrape data as 'edits'. This probably won't work in versions of Excel earlier than... 2003?. I can probably fix this with a re-export, but can't promise it will still work.

Cheers to PMBug for the PM quotes URL. I found an equivalent for the currencies from.... the ECB website! hah.

http://www.ecb.int/stats/eurofxref/eurofxref-daily.xml


DCRB - you're welcome ;-)
 
I would like to understand this rhodium better, the massive swings really seem unreal. Why can't you just use plat or pall for catalytic converters, is rhodium necessary? Just curious. Trying to understand the big picture.
 
This thread has caused me to rethink my silver allocation. I havnt changed it but trying to get a better understanding. My concern is 2011 saw a big increase in avg silver price. Will there be a wave of new mines and as a result supply coming on board over the next 5 yrs? Gold supply has increased but has not increased on a % basis as much as silver.

Where did you see a report that silver supply had increased? Last I heard, silver production had increased, but demand had outstripped it. SRSrocco has been following the supply story in depth, so you might try contacting him for a better answer. See also: Official Mint Silver Sales Surpass Domestic Silver Production in US & Canada in 2011
 
ok thx will take a look. Supply has increased from mining. If you look at the silver institute tables. usually after prices go up a lot there is more mining so woudl expect more supply to come on. Saw an estimate from the CPM Group that over next 5 yrs like 180 mm more oz will come online from mining.
 
...ah, those guys.

"CPM Group was founded in 1986 by Jeffrey M. Christian. Mr. Christian was previously the head of commodities research at J. Aron & Company, which was acquired by Goldman Sachs & Co. Mr. Christian formed CPM group through a management buy-out of the commodities research group of Goldman, Sachs & Co. with the vision to provide independent market leading research on the commodities markets to a variety of customers ranging from sovereign governments to investment funds."

(+ mining companies)

:doodoo:
 
Catcons are the bulk use of Pt and Pd but not the only uses. Chemists use a lot (including the cold fusion wackos) for things like crucibles for iginitions, gas purifiers, and whatnot. Rhodium for one is used as an alloy with Pt to make it better mechanically for crucibles and other things. We have a hydrogen purifier that has a rather large amount of Pd in it in the form of a big "test tube" for hydrogen to diffuse through when it's heated. In fact, I just did a vacuum deposition of a few mg of Pd for a guy who wanted a membrane that would store and release tiny amounts of H in extremely pure condition.

Stuff like that tends to set a lower limit on demand, and is not a price sensitive use, really. If a guy is going to give me a few hundred bucks to have a couple milligrams of Pd put here just so - do I really care what the Pd cost me?

Wild swings usually mean a thin market in chemicals/elements. The stuff will build up at some producer who gets it as a byproduct, then someone will need a bit, make a phone call...and the odd trade happens. Most of the Pt group metals are found together and are produced more or less at the ratios of what's in the ore. I suspect some of this has never made it to the futures/options markets for hedging, it all being done person to person at this point.

Yes, silver production can go up without the net supply going up if the demand also goes up. Isn't most silver actually a byproduct of other metal extraction? Just asking since that's what I've seen in all my "rare metals" mining and extraction types of books. Things like lead, copper, zinc etc tend to have a little silver in the ore, and they get it back as things like anode slime when the former are refined electrolytically.

I'll have to check h4rdware's stuff and see if I can get it going in open office here (all linux at my shop now), but obviously - nice job man! I use www.ino.com for a lot of things, a few are right on the front page, more under the "markets" menu there - futures, options, all that. Not super fast on some of the updates, but always there, and free. They don't use much fancy html.

My BS numbers above were just along the lines of well, what I do myself usually, and based on a kind of barbell approach - less of the highest beta ones, since you don't need as much of those to see a big gain or loss on one of those wild swings.

One way of looking at it is that a typical move in one holding ought to be normalized to the same dollar change. In the above sentence, it's the "ought" that is the questionable assumption. There could easily be reasons that's not ideal. The more high beta ones on the package, the less of the total perhaps ought to be high beta to keep the overall number reasonable?

If you pull up a year chart of Pd - it's a swing traders dream, mostly. We had one range last year to about September, then another lower one since about October. You could (and I did) reliably buy at/near the bottom of this range, and go ahead and sell or short near the top, repeat as necessary. Pretty much just bounced at every support and resistance level, very nice and easy to get right. The only times you get hammered doing that would be when the range shifts, as it did sept-oct. On average, you make money.

Speaking of rare (and I'll have to get pix when I get the stuff), friend Bill scored us a few Km of W/Re alloy wire for pennies on the dollar. Rhenium is one rare beast, used for awhile in tungsten heaters for vacuum tubes and light bulb filaments, as it makes the tungsten more ductile and less likely to "offset" and blow out at high temp, and less prone to the destructive water cycle.

It's also used in type C thermocouples (for power plants, nukes and other real hot stuff where type K would melt) that cost several bucks a foot for the alloy wires. It's cool stuff, much rarer than the other metals mentioned here - but due to the end of tubes and filament lights...who knows where the price goes. We have uses for it here, though. Rhenium is estimated at 1 ppb of earth's crust, and no where shows up as a concentrate - very hard to get.

Now, that's rare.

One thing meta-materials in nanotech ain't going to eliminate the need for is super high temp materials. One of the things I accumulate here in the phyzz stash is things like that, tantalum, niobium, vanadium - kind of semi-rare things for use around the lab. You can fool with catalysis and magnetism and such like with precise atomic arrangements of the cheaper elements (RE's might not retain the throne for magnets because of this), but they'll still melt/evaporate as easy as ever - and lose whatever cool properties you got from the special arrangement.
 
I just noticed a small problem with the pmgraphs3.xlsx I hadn't fixed since I changed all the sources - the price histories use ETFs, which have a discount (or premium) to NAV in the range of a few %, but the instantaneous prices for the current day are quoted at spot, so the two don't line up. This causes the 'advice' bars to offer slightly negative advice (mostly 'sell'), thinking that the price spiked up today when it hasn't.

I'll upload a minor revision later with the a NAV adjust field for each source, which should correct that.

(thanks all for the kind comments!)


[update]

Here's the updated version, with ETF NAV corrections - and this time with the graphs properly oriented. For some reason I didn't quite manage to flip them all last time. Now the latest date is towards the right on the first 4 sheets.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12947585/pmgraphs3b.xlsx
 
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