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Old 02-01-2012, 04:06 PM   #1
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Krokodil: a case for drug legalization

Here is an example of why all drugs must be legalized. At least heroin is a natural compound and if made legal would be a relatively safe high when dispensed in pure, measured doses... I know that sounds like contrarian thinking, but read this:

The flesh eating drug:

(No graphic pics) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-2300787.html

(very graphic pics!) http://io9.com/5859291/krokodil-russ...eat-your-flesh

And lastly, a video, I have not looked at it because the description is too graphic for me (and this is coming from a guy who has watched most Saw movies)

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?ne...%3D_Yfd_7jrnMk
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:14 PM   #2
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It's also important to note that the actual drug, desomorphine doesn't have the crazy side effects like the street drug krokodil. Per wiki, it was created in 1932 and is used by the Swiss pharmas as morphine. The tragedy occurs due to the impure chemicals (lighter fluid, iodine, etc.) used to create the chemical reactions.
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:46 PM   #3
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I guess some people like the "I'm about to die from poison" buzz. Truly, I've met a few in my time who went nuts for a bad batch of some drug (X) that only made you feel like you were gonna die. They liked it better.

Me, if I'm going to be talkin to jesus, I'd rather be doing it by choice and not out of pure desperation.

For me, the real case for legal drugs is what happens otherwise. We make the worst people on earth rich and powerful when they are illegal, and in fact they help lobby for stronger drug laws all the time. Prohibition creating organized crime comes to mind as well.

If you look at charts for heroin addiction you'll see a cycle. It becomes large for awhile, then drops off. Why? The theory is that people begin to notice what losers heroin addicts are and are less likely to start themselves. Just like a graph of predator-prey populations.

We know some drugs that really are not anywhere in the same league as heroin for being bad for you, yet are illegal, serve as gateways to the worse ones, simply because once you cross the threshold of illegality - you're there anyway, and the same source can often provide the entire spectrum. Further, after having been told that say, marijuana is "bad" and finding out otherwise, one wonders what other lies one has been told - so it destroys the credibility for people telling you what really is bad.

The main problem I have with all-legal drugs is that there really are some that would be abused very severely - really have no good use, and are really bad.

Many prescription meds would count here - antibiotics are already abused, and there are consequences for non-users when something like MRSA comes about as a result.

Meth - know any meth heads who are still OK? Speed is borrowing life ahead at ruinous interest rates, and meth is the worst deal going on that one - coke at least you get the borrowed life before you have to pay, after all.

A lot of people proved they couldn't handle LSD, to which one builds up tolerance very fast - you really have to wait a long time for a little to do it again, and if after a trip you really want more right off - there's something wrong with you, you're not getting it.

There is something to be said for the case of deterrence by losers, and Darwin eliminating the worst of them - if we didn't have to pay for their health and jail costs.

And it's not just drug cartels that profit from illegal drugs, it's a host of other baddies, among which you'd have to include the DEA, who uses the RICO statute to keep anything they seize - with no recourse even if you're found not guilty later. Talk about a perverse incentive. Agencies that don't depend on congress for their funding are very dangerous to our freedoms - no checks, no balances.

As a guy who used to be a performer in the rock and roll field, sure, I've been exposed to every drug there is - twice if I liked it. I kind of know the score, and it's hard to make blanket statements. There are some people who can become utter alcoholic on just beer - I'd drown! Or pot for that matter, just check out from life.

To me, this seems less of a problem with drugs, than some missing aspect of personality, perhaps responsibility or discipline. These people are just losers - drugs are peripheral to the truth here.

I've been pretty lucky myself - I can be a chippie and take it or leave it. But that is evidently the exception or something close. When I was a teen, I got myself addicted to opiates for awhile. But at some point, I realized my brain was the main, maybe the only thing I had going for me, and so turning myself into a zombie wasn't going to be a good plan. So, I quit. Just like that. I didn't even know what withdrawal was until I took a drug education course in high school later and matched up what they said with how I felt - at that point, I lost all respect for addicts, it really wasn't that bad. Cigarettes are far harder to quit for most people.

Since I grew up when I did, I was exposed to coke long before meth. So, no problems there ever. Someone gave me some meth free (this happens a lot in the rock and roll business) and after trying it - and finding myself more or less unable to stop before I ran out of the free sample - never again. After you're addicted to anything bad once, you learn to be really sensitive to things that want to grab you like that and avoid avoid avoid - at some point it's your freedom to make your own decisions that is as stake, and as someone extremely fiercely independent - well, it's not so hard to take or leave any of that stuff.

I sure would like to see some legalization, enough to put the really bad people out of business, but I can't make myself get behind legal-everything until I see a bit more evidence of that being a really good idea for society as a whole.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:01 PM   #4
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I watched a video some time back showing a bunch of these idiots in a "shooting gallery" cooking this shit up and blasting it in their veins.

As far as I am concerned, this is Darwin at his finest. For sheer shock value alone, they should bring one of these walking dead knuckleheads to every third grade class and make every kid look at what happens when you are a complete dumbass. It's gotta suck pretty bad to spend the rest of your short ass life rotting slowly away.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:37 PM   #5
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The Ancona Substance Abuse Program: "Hello children, look at this moron with a rotten leg. Do you like your legs?"


DCF, I used to be in the music business too, and I was a teenager at the time. All examples of fine, upstanding citizens was very good motivation to go to engineering school. Luckily I was never attracted to substances and didn't try anything despite the opportunity always being there. I'm downright Mormon when it comes to substances (not an actual Mormon though).

I've tried explaining how the drug war actually enhaces the incentive for people to sell drugs and employ violence in the process along with the increased trampling of our rights from those who are supposedly combating the illegal drugs. Sometimes I get a few acknowledging head nods. Unfortunately, I think it is combination of repulsion to drugs (which I share obviously) combined with the statist attitude that the goverment can and should make things we don't like disappear that makes the idea of legalizing drugs so that they become less of a problem a hard pill to swallow. It is the same mentality that people display when they act as if they have the right to not be offended, and therefore the government should banish things offensive.


It is rare that people shoot each other over alcohol these days, but most can't seem to wrap their brain around this, despite having real proof of concept in our country in living memory.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:07 AM   #6
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Interesting point of views. For all those who oppose drug legalization, I say, you must accept what these krokodil users are doing themselves because if cheap heroin was available, I'm sure 99% of these people would much rather do that then to subject themselves to this self mutilation.

I also disagree with the people who think they do this voluntarily. These people have no option because they have no more money. War on drugs is a war on poor people. In the US, majority of the people jailed on drug convictions are brown or black. How can all the money we waste on incarcerating these people be possibly less then the amount we would spend on addict health care. It's not like we don't pay for addict health care anyway lol.

Krokodil costs x10 cheaper to do then heroin and x7 stronger, and multiple times more addictive then heroin. I think its of the upmost important to prevent anyone from getting to the point where they have to use krokodil because then lives are ruined.

And in time, with the upgrade in technology and information in creating mesomorphine (or any other man made drug), its going to be easier for anyone to create designer drugs with every day chemicals.

Drug prohibition does not work. Drug education and rehabilitation is the only answer.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:20 AM   #7
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One either believes that everyone has the liberty to exercise free will (as long as it doesn't harm/damage another), or one doesn't.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:21 AM   #8
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DDB and SV,
Great points all around. I think about the amount of money wasted on the war on drugs, then look at the devastation being wrought in Mexico and Colombia over drugs and can't help but think the answer is legalization. The only drugs I take are prescribed ones, and then, only if I am bleeding from the eyeballs because I don't get along well with medicine. Those who would choose to shoot up heroin, have at it bro, just keep your stoned ass in the house and out of your car. To all the drunks out there, same thing, stay the fuck out of your car and I don't have any problem with it. I say get just as stoned and drunk as you wish, but stay the hell off the roads. Make this shit legal, but make the laws against driving under the influence so harsh that no one will take the chance. I don't mean prison time, because then I have to pay for it. Perhaps those convicted of drink and drugs driving should be given a forty pound steel ball on a six foot chain and put to work growing vegetables for old people and the very poor. They could also grow their own food at the same time. House them inside converted shipping containers. They could grow enough surplus to sell at farmers markets to pay for a few guards and some riot guns.
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:36 PM   #9
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Right. To me the real costs in "recreational" drugs are not so much the harm most users do to themselves (that's their problem?), but the harm they do to others - killing people on the highways, collecting entitlements, stealing and so on. You have to wonder a little if the costs would go up or down with legalization - it's a pretty complex thing to figure out all the consequences of.

Of course, most of the people killed on highways are killed by alcohol users, and right behind that - old people on their "meds" - which now leads around my area.

Taking away drivers licenses both is not as common as it should be, and doesn't really work. I know a few who've had theirs taken, they just keep driving.
We don't take them away as it can be tantamount to a death penalty if you don't live near public transport - it's become a right rather than a privilege.

Most hard drug users quickly fall below the level of development an responsibility required to have a car anyway in my experience. But they impose other costs on us.

The real question is what's the net cost in either case, and I'm not sure we could come up with an answer without trying it. Seems that some countries that allow heroin to be legal for maintenance have fewer problems with that one, but that's not really the main problem drug out there.
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Old 02-04-2012, 04:53 PM   #10
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Most drugs are taken in an attempt to remove the user from their perceived reality.

The worse your lot in life, the more you try to remove yourself from it. The irony being that it makes the reality worse when you succeed.

Simple solution - learn to love what you have, or at least be content with it.
Hard to do though, with the MSM pumping out fear and adverts for everything you 'must have'.

I major on positive reality and avoid escapism generally ( although i did watch lord of the rings and avatar )

So ditch the TV and study nature.
Walk beside a dancing moorland stream with dappled sunlight shining through the green leaves in spring and soak up the colours and smell of the flowers. Listen to birdsong

Its all free and way more inspiring than any drug.
Ok some might say its escapism but its what we are programmed to enjoy.


Acid was bloody amazing though when i tried it at a big music event many years ago and im curious about DMT, having had some fascinating conversations with a couple of people who have tried it ........
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:34 PM   #11
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well, my take on it: it should be legal, for all the practical and even moral (free choice, do not make outlaws from some sorry ass users, do not push them into the arms of REAL outlaws, etc.). It just DOESN'T work, the way we spend hundreds of millions if not billions on the drug wars. Besides, as others mentioned - there is case study, US prohibition...

I've tried some coke once, and amphetamine once (I was young & stupid), but have decided it is far too powerfull shit for my likings, and never looked back. Would it change anything for me if it was legal? No. Does it change anything, if it is illegal, to anyone that really WANTS that shit? No, apart from criminalizing him.

That is just a nonsense as it is, making illegal something that people like (paid sex, another parallel), want & sometimes need, it never worked, and it never will. And these home-made poisons, they are the exact result of "successes" in drug wars - local supply of safer drugs dries out, and if someone is addicted, well, he MUST take a shot, he will do ANYTHING. No consequences will stop him - that"s a definition of addiction, they are no longer their own masters, their addiction is.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:50 AM   #12
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"Ten years ago, Portugal decriminalized all drugs. One decade after this unprecedented experiment, drug abuse is down by half"

Many of these innovative treatment procedures would not have emerged if addicts had continued to be arrested and locked up rather than treated by medical experts and psychologists. ... Rather than locking up 100,000 criminals, the Portuguese are working to cure 40,000 patients and fine-tuning a whole new canon of drug treatment knowledge at the same time."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain...f-in-portugal/
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:08 AM   #13
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Agreed SV

When i was in Amsterdam a few years back, I didn't see junkies stumbling around everywhere, and street crime statistics are extremely low as compared to here. I say make it legal and treat folks instead of sending them to prison, which only serves to make them better criminals.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:33 AM   #14
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Reading this thread has renewed my confidence in my fellow Americans. It does my heart good to see so many exhibit common sense and advocate liberty. Thanks to all who contributed.
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Old 03-09-2012, 02:01 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by singleshot View Post:
Reading this thread has renewed my confidence in my fellow Americans. It does my heart good to see so many exhibit common sense and advocate liberty. Thanks to all who contributed.
does that include my comment and if so, does it make me an honourary merkan ?
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