advice please - .40 or 9mm for CHL

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Bonzo

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If this isn't the right place to post this I'm sorry. I'm attending class/ range time next weekend to get a concealed pistol license. Don't know whether to go 9mm or .40 cal. Looks like .40 cal ammo is a lot more expensive. Any thoughts are appreciated!
 
.40 is a newer caliber and more powerful than 9mm. It is growing in popularity, but still not as ubiquitous as 9mm, hence the price disparity in favor of 9mm right now. The last pistol I acquired was a 9mm precisely because I wanted to be able to practice at the range with something more powerful that a .22 on a budget.

YMMV.
 
Tee-hee, you should get both of course...

9mm might be easier to conceal, depending on the design and capacity. Usually you get more capacity for the same size, but not always. But easy to conceal guns have short barrels and sight radii - and are the hardest to shoot well. If they're supler light, they sting your hand in recoil. It's one of those trade-off things.

The pros use .40 almost 100%, few exceptions. Fewer bullets but they count more, and in my own experience, tend to be a lot more accurate - could be luck of the draw, but very few 9mms brought to my range have been well shot by anyone at all. One exception is a S&W M&P there.

Reality is that once you get a gun and start having fun building your skills, it's too late to think "this one or that one" - you'll wind up with a few as time goes on.

By the time ammo costs start to bug you...(and cleaning materials, oil etc) you'll be thinking of reloading with a nice Dillon which makes it fast, easy, and cheap - that is, after the rather high initial expense of getting the tools and reloading manuals.

I took that one step further and when I'm having a bored afternoon, might cast a few hundred or a thousand bullets from lead mostly recycled from my range. Handgun brass lasts a really long time - basically till you wear out the primer pocket with pushing primers in and out, so it gets to be pretty cheap at the margin if you shoot a lot, which anyone not yet a master should do. No point having a gun if you can't really shoot it well - even under stress. No, make that especially under stress.
Takes most people a few thousand rounds minimum to get there...

Depending on the situation - my concealed carry gun is most often a taurus ultralight revolver in .38 with crimson trace grips. My other carry gun (usually car carry) is a CZ-97 in .45. I prefer guns that either have a real safety (like the CZ) or really really don't need one (like the Taurus - 13 lb trigger). Glocks have shot a few people while fishing them out of concealment, like the old 1911's when carried cocked and locked. No need for that danger IMO.

The Ti Taurus is NOT FUN to shoot. But it works, very reliable, no pocket fluff issues, and it's the most concealable gun around due to it's light weight not making a big print from making things sag. But it's the one I have with me, if you get my drift. Getting a super duper gun you won't carry is a complete waste if you need it and don't have it at hand.
 

It really depends on what is important to you. Ask youself a few questions:

1) Is it for the house, the car, or carry on your person?
2) If pistol, revolver or automatic?
3) How big of a person are you? This affects what size caliber you can handle the recoil from as well as the size of the firearm you can realistically conceal on your person.
4) Cost you can afford / Are you willing to reload

If you answer these questions, we can provide a clearer answer.
 
Benjamen, mainly for house and car
Auto
I'm 5'7" 145lbs
I'll prolly reload eventually.
 
One reason .40 is currently more expensive is that it's good stuff in the main. There is no cheap-crap under-spec should-never-have-been-accepted mil surplus, as there is for 9mm out there. (note, 9mm is roughly equal to .38 in horsepower, eg, not much - not in the same class as .40, .45 or even .357 mag or sig)

That said, there's a range of quality in both, and a range in prices. Don't compare top line self defense or pro law enforcement .40 with steel cased, sub standard powder and bullets crap 9mm, as you're not comparing like to like.

For house and car - size and weight aren't a big deal. I'm using a .45 in that role here, and love that - it shoots very nicely, very comfortable (no sting), and everyone I hand it to gets nice scores on target. Just a good 'ol reliable CZ, with a 1911 backup just in case. Plenty of reasonable ammo around for that, and there's no argument it's the fight stopper in pistols - if you can shoot well. But I don't try to carry that one concealed, it makes me walk like quasimoto, as I'm a little guy. I might pull it off with a shoulder holster and a couple mags on the other side to balance it (if I was wearing a suit or a winter coat), but then the straps chafe me - those things are heavy.
 
Bonzo said:
Benjamen, mainly for house and car
Auto
I'm 5'7" 145lbs
I'll prolly reload eventually.
Click to expand...

Facts about recoil:
a) The larger the caliber the stronger the recoil
b) Within the same caliber, the larger the firearm, the weaker the recoil

If you are not trying to conceal the weapon, a full size pistol would work fine for you and lessen the recoil. Try firing multiple weapons of various caliber and sizes, BEFORE you buy, to see what is your personal sensitivity to recoil. It does you no good to buy a weapon you will not practice with because it hurts to fire it! Also, if your married, you may want to take into consideration what you spouse can effectively use in your absence.

Since you want semi-automatic, your common caliber choices are (from weaker to stronger) 22, 9mm, 40, and 45. As you step up in caliber, your ammo costs more, firearm may cost more, has more stopping power, usually have less rounds in a magazine, and has more recoil.

Both 22 and 9mm are so common and relatively inexpensive that reloading does not save you much money, but reloading is worth it as you move into the larger two.

A common rule of thumb, for something you are not carrying on your person every day, is you buy the largest caliber you can effectively use and afford. If you are carrying on your person, then you have to take into account ease of carrying and concealing it in your every day attire.
 
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I have several 9mm handguns, but the only two that shoot a reasonable distance and still hit on target are the Glock 17 and my Sig. I have two Makarovs, a CZ and an FEG, which are easily concealable, but I wouldn't count on them for anything farther away than around 10 - 15 feet. The Glock shoots well out to 30 feet and the sig is about the same, anly it is a more compact handgun and therefore more "snappy".

I have not shot a .40 yet, but I have shot a .45 and for my money, if I am strictly out for firepower over concealment, I would use the .45.
 
I see a lot of different facts and opinions on here, and I have to say I don't disagree with any of them. Just ask yourself what is the purpose of this firearm? You said you wanted it for carry and for your car/house, and you are a smaller statured guy. So if this is your every day carry gun, chances are you may not spend a lot of time at the range, which is fine. For an everyday concealed carry weapon, I would think you want something with a small frame - chances are, it will never be fired in a shootout, and since you may not fire it at the range a lot, it doesn't have to be super comfortable. In this instance, the weapon is only a tool that serves a specific purpose, nothing more.

Something else to consider: YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT A BULLET WILL DO. Two cases in point. 1. My friends dad swallowed a .44 mag in a suicide attempt and is still alive to this day. 2. I've watched video of a state trooper take a round of .22 and bleed out on the street. So you'll hear lots of folks talk about knockdown power and ballistics and percentages and all kinds of crap. Just keep in mind that knockdown power is only a measurement and creates a "likely response". Nothing is guarunteed.

So specifically, for your situation, I'd focus on the size of the weapon itself. What would you be comfortable carrying around inside your waistband every day and what would easily stay concealed. Don't get to wrapped up in which caliber it is, as you can find nearly identical guns in different calibers, such as the glock 26(9mm) and glock 27 (.40) and all sizes in between.

I acknowledge the arguement for a larger caliber but even a butter knife is an effective weapon when wielded properly, so there are no absolutes when it comes to the size of the bullet. So gather all the information you can, like you are doing now and decide what you believe in and what helps you sleep at night.
 
I like the .40 cal personally (the holes are bigger on the target) and you can find many that would be easily concealable. IMO it's all what is comfortable for you, go with a friend and test out some of there different calibers or go to a range where you can rent, and test the weapons you are considering buying.
 
A lot of good advice already posted, and as you can see from the variety of answers, it will mostly come down to personal preference.

The gun I would grab at home and shoot in competition is a 9mm. I went with 9mm due to low recoil (it was my first handgun), higher capacity, cheaper ammo. I rented a .40 once and wouldn't hesitate to use one; haven't shot a .45 yet. Like DC, mine is a CZ.

I also have a .22 conversion for this gun that is great for practicing fundamentals at a low cost. The recoil of more powerful rounds can lead to the developement of bad shooting habbits, so shooting a .22 is a great way to build your skills. And it is fun.

For carrying I'm usually with a Ruger LCR (snub nosed .38), similar to DC's Taurus. It is pretty snappy, but I'm small too and live where it is too hot to wear a coat most of the time (a jacket in 100F heat would draw some attention). If I lived in a colder place I would probably carry a larger gun, with greater capacity and possibly a more powerful round.

As someone said, go rent some guns and see what you like since if you don't like the gun you will not shoot it often. If you do not shoot often you will not be a good shot. If you are not a good shot not only will that gun be more likely to not save you, but it may become a huge liability (more likely to hit an innocent bystander). Keep in mind that not all guns of the same caliber are equal. That .38 snub nose revolver will let your hand know that a small explosion just occured whereas a big .357 magnum shooting .38 will be quite tame.

I'd say start thinking about 3 handguns. The small one to carry when concealment is difficult. The big one (still talking frame size here) that sits on the night table and gets a lot of range time. And the .22, be it a 3rd gun or a conversion kit for one of the others. That would pretty much cover you, and is a perfect excuse to buy 3 guns.



Whatever gun you do get, I highly recommend shooting in Internation Defensive Pistol Association matches (http://www.idpa.com/). Most of the matches are locally organized just-for-fun events, but there are more serious state/regional matches. Instead of standing in front of a piece of paper, you get to draw from your concealed holster and shoot on the move at moving targets. It is oviously very practical training for defending yourself and it is a lot of fun! Check with your local ranges to see when/where matches are held.
 
Great advece guys! Appreciate it! I like the idea of more than one sidearm. I already have a Ruger Mark II .22 So maybe get both a 9mm and .40 I do plan on a lot of range time and the shop I deal with offers advanced combat/defensive courses which I plan to take.
 
What I find in the larger calibers, at least in the guns I own, is that the recoil is more of a shove than a slap. Yes, there's more momentum involved (MV) but the "rise time" of this is slower, so they are actually more comfortable to shoot, in the main. This is partly because they (and their ammo) tend to weigh more, so the V part of the conserved MV is lower on the hand end of things, even though with the same grip the gun will rise more in recoil.

While shooting a high-recoil gun can cause one to learn a flinch (bad - but easy to detect and correct by practice) - shooting a low recoil gun pretending it's practice for any but the very most basic shooting skills is just plain wrong - controlling that recoil, not limp-wristing, and getting back on target for a follow-up are some of the very most important skills you'll never learn shooting a .22 conversion, period.

My 1911 has a Kimber .22 conversion which I now use only rarely. It's a totally different gun with that on there. Sure, it's great fun, but - once you get used to shooting that, you can't put a .45 into a pie plate at 7 paces till you get used to the .45 again. Remember, recoil begins before the bullet has left, and it's where the gun is pointing when the bullet leaves that matters. Not where it was when you thought about the trigger press, or immediately after the press, but where it is *in recoil* when the bullet actually leaves, a few milliseconds after the trigger pull. Most people shoot very high, completely off target, when transitioning between the two.

Grip is all-important in handguns, particularly consistency of that - and you are working against yourself with not training what you really plan to shoot. Shooting a .22 conversion will ruin your muscle memory for the right grip for shooting the real thing, I and many others have experienced this for real.

Edit:
It's not universal that bigger calibers slap you less - there's a .45 derringer out there you couldn't pay me to shoot, I promise that would hurt.
 
Bonzo said:
Thoughts on .357 Magnum? I like saying Magnum.
Click to expand...

I actually prefer to start people new to pistols out on revolvers. If you pull the trigger on an automatic and it does not go bang, you have to know how to clear the chamber. This flusters the new shooters, while with the revolver, you just pull the trigger again to fire the next round in the cylinder.

As far the the .357 revolvers, I like the ones that can also fire the 38 specials for cheaper practice.
 
My wife and I received a S&W .357 revolver as a gift from my FIL. I shoot .38spcl rounds at the range with it and it's awesome. At the steel plate rack, I consistently go six for six even when choosing plates in random order. Even though it's a double action, I shoot it single action and cocking the hammer manually doesn't slow me down. The trigger pull is just too much for me to shoot double action accurately. Fun gun and I would have no qualms with using it if my life depended upon it.
 
Get a Glock 19.
It is as safe and easy to use as a double-action revolver while providing 16 rounds of 9mm ammo.
It's affordable, recoil is manageable, ammo is fairly inexpensive, and it will go bang every time you pull the trigger.
Get a Glock 19.
 
I like semi-auto handguns because there is typically no worry about trigger pull. With a double action, single-double or single action, you can have tremendous trigger pull requirements.
 
ancona said:
Sooo...............what do you think you want to do brother?
Click to expand...

What I need to figure out first is the 9mm .40 question. Only way to do that is to fire a lot of each at the range and see what works best for me. Doing a lot of research and talking to people bout which gun to buy. A couple law enforcement officers and military peeps I know are steering me to the FNS or FNX. They absolutely love them. They use Glocks and Berettas for work and love them also. One officer even has Glock tattoed on his arm but after shooting the FNs says they're the better sidearm. Plus they're less expensive. I can't find anything anywhere but praise for the FNs. I'll prolly also get a .357 sometime. I'll keep you posted on my course this wekend and what I end up with. Thanks again for all your input and advice!
 
In revolvers, .357 mags will all shoot .38 spcl if you want to. The only difference is the .357 brass is a little longer so it won't go the other way. However, almost all .357 loads perform poorly in less than a 4.5" barrel, since they use more and slower burning power. In a snubby, I've clocked them at under 400 fps, while a midrange wadcutter .38 spcl in the same gun got 750 fps, and a ton less blinding muzzle flash.

But you can certainly shoot either in any .357 mag, and I do. Slightly less accurate since the bullet jump to the rifling is a little longer, no big deal unless you become a very good shooter. Most people can't tell without using a Ransom rest.

But this leaves a ring of crud in the chamber ahead of the .38 shell end, about .1" before the chamber end, that has to be cleaned well before a .357 shell can be used again - they either won't go in or won't come out (easy) after switching back from .38 without a cleaning. Which you should do anyway...clean guns shoot better and are more reliable.

I have an FN FiveSeven and it's a ton of fun. Body armor piercing little Ti-core high velocity bullets (2500 fps and up), and you get 20 in a clip. But it wouldn't be my main gun. Not so accurate, very big gas back blast (into your face), and super expensive ammo. I made my own reloading dies as at first no one offered them, but due to the plastic coating on the brass, and the thing unlocking early (it's a blowback design), you can't get many uses out of it at all. These were designed as a possible replacement for the Army's Berretta 9mms, but lost the competition.

Glock to Glock, I'd bet you like the .40 better when shooting (I do). I dispute the supposed reliability of the Glocks, having seen them jam plenty at the ranges. Any auto - you have to keep it clean and lubed right, pocket fluff can make them malfunction easily compared to revolvers. I teach for the concealed permit - and we always use revolvers for the reason mentioned above. Most people expect a gun to sit around for a long time between uses, then be perfect when the need is there, and want the simpler interface, so that's best for them.

The Glock idea of a safety scares me, it's all too easy to defeat accidentally; ask Plaxico Burris, and quite a few other lesser known people with holy legs.
 
Bonzo said:
Just saw this on Drudge. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ying-to-stop-robbery-20120516,0,6674405.story

Isn't Checago a gun free city? I mean not for criminals, just law abiding citizens.
Pisses me off!
Click to expand...

Government stupidity knows no bounds...

Illegal to shoot a bear on your property:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/1...rged-with-killing-black-bear/?test=latestnews

Find a pistol laying in bushes while a work, turn it in to the police, get fired by the county:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/1...-after-finding-loaded-gun-handing-it-to-cops/
 
Whatever gun or caliber you decide upon, I urge you to practice with it. There's an old saying: "Beware the man with one gun." IMHO, too many people shoot too many different guns and don't become fully accomplished with any single weapon. This is especially true for the handgun that you might have to use to protect your family or yourself. Just my two cents worth.......
 
I completely agree with HCA.

I would also add that one is none, and two are one. Three is better but four or more mean you are your own back-up now. Tactically, I like the idea that my primary weapons are only three calibers; 9mm, .22 rimfire and .556/.223.

I should note that while all my uppers are chambered in 5.56 but accept .223. If youer rifle or carbine is chambered in .223, it is unwise to fire 5.56 in the weapon.

We also have a 7.62 X 39 we like because the ammo is quite cheap and the sight line and recoil are close to the .223 so we get lots of practice with long arms for less than the cost of shooting a lighter, less powerful round.
 

I'd just like to add 12 ga 3 inch magnum to that. So versatile!
 
Ancona is right, though so is that saying "beware the man who shoots just one gun" - as someone who shoots many (gunsmith and competition) it's really true unless you get a lot of practice.

Not sure I'd agree that the .223 is wimpy compared to 7.62x39. Those really lose their ambition past 100 yards, and most shoot pie plate groups at that range - we call them minute of milk jug here. .223 is nice out to around 400 if you know your holds, nastier on target too. The 7.52 shines in very close quarters mainly. I'll take my .223s with their <1/4" groups over a 6" group out of an AK or SKS any day. If you don't hit 'em, it doesn't matter what you missed with!

Nato 5.56 chambers are spec'd slightly larger than .223 civvie to work with bent and sloppy and dirty mil ammo - and some of that is pretty bad stuff, which is why it's "cheaper than dirt" But both guns and ammo vary, and all ammo is originally SAAMI spec'd to the smaller .223 standard, including the nato stuff - the mil chamber spec just allows for more tolerance slippage. And damage between manufacture and actual use.

FWIW, the NATO chambered chrome lined .223's are the least accurate available due to the sloppy fit and the lousy plating process (it's hard enough to get right on a flat plate, now inside a bore tube...not so easy.

I will say that in slow and medium speed competition type venues - switching from a .38 target gun to a .45 doesn't give me any trouble at all these days, but both are large heavy guns I get a lot of practice with. EG the revolver is a S&W mod 14 with a 6" barrel, not my puny carry gun, which I have to re-learn every time and force myself to practice with as it's not fun to shoot (glad for that laser on it). So, not that different - the S&W .38 is a much better trigger and easier to recover from recoil, that's it - so in fast shooting, I'd rather have it unless I really needed a ton of bullets right now (I do use speedloader carriers for the revolvers so that's nearly a wash).

I'd have a lot more trouble going from my CZ to a Glock, for example as grip is critical and they are shaped different - my muscle memory would work against me and does.

The only reason I can think of to need a real buncha bullets in one encounter is if I'm outnumbered many to one - and that's simply a situation you have to avoid, because movies notwithstanding, you're going to lose. Shoot and run away, live to shoot another day.

As the marines say - anything worth shooting is worth a double tap, but more is waste. They also say - if you find yourself in a fair fight - shoot your planner. You won't need to if you're the planner and in that fight, someone else will handle that one for you - so do think about that when sweating how much firepower you really need - it might be a waste of weight and size. Even the DHS (and they can't shoot for crap - we teach them for re-qual here sometimes) only ordered about 1.5 bullets per person in the country.

As Col Plaster says, too easy leads to half-assism. Every shot is the first shot of the rest of your life is a better approach, then having a zillion doesn't seem as important - the first one ended the fight - if it's a hit. I don't care what you have - if you have 10 against one, no weapon can force them all to keep their heads down at once - you're toast because the one you missed won't miss you. A minigun wouldn't save you if there was just one guy off to the side or behind while you get distracted with a main force.

Therefore, the other part of that equation is having that association with like minded people you can count on in a pinch. It might seem chicken to run and hide with them until you can venture forth in force - but I'll vote for live chicken over dead duck every time.
 

The only gun you need:
http://nemoarms.com/worlds-titanium-ar-308-rifle-by-nemo-arms-100000/

:drool::drool::drool::drool:
 
Seems pretty high priced, and Ti (most alloys) aren't really that hard to machine, I do it all the time - bit life isn't so bad. Tell you what - anybody wants one of those, I'll make it for $10k instead (In pm's preferably). Line forms to the left. I'd make a ton of money even if I paid the machinists on my own board to do it all CNC out of the best alloys. Their stuff comes out looking like jewelry.

Not my own taste. I don't like light, short barreled carbines in "big" calibers. You lose the long range/accuracy aspect in exchange for having what amounts to an AR in .223 with much more expensive, heavy, and noisy ammo and more recoil - hard to get off shots *on target* as fast, actually. 16" ain't enough for .308 to really do its thing - ask the Army, Marine, and Seals snipers. They go with 24" to 26" on their long range guns in .308 for a good reason.
 
~Opinion w/ my own personal experience~ I carry a Springfield XD40 4" Service model. I carry concealed w/blackhawk serpa holster. The firearm does weigh down my belt just a tad, so to remedy it, i wear my belt a little tighter and has worked fine. I wear a little bit larger shirt untucked to conceal. leaves a little bit of a print, but nothing that shows the shape of the firearm. I chose the .40 because it puts the right size hole in the paper, and has the necessary stopping power, and personally, it was the most comfortable for me to shoot. I rented several different calibers at a range before i chose one, and liked the .40 the best.

I have only had one run-in in a store w/management at the local Lowe's, i was open carrying. the manager wasn't aware that their corporate policy was to follow federal, state, and local laws regarding customers carrying firearms in the store. Their management has been trained and know better than to kick someone out of the store for carrying a firearm.

Just my .02
 
A sunny disposition usually goes a long way toward deflecting troubles when you carry. I've had a number of interesting experiences in that regard. My bank? Ask them and they said - please do - and please carry open, we know you and it makes us feel safer.

Believe it or not - liquor store, same response.

But I once had a kinda bad day (turned out great) soon after that shooting at VA tech. I went to that area to get an oil change, and skipped over to the quickie mart next door to get a hot dog while I waited. The Indian girl behind the counter about had a heart attack. Didn't say anything, but it was obviously scaring her, so I piped up and told her, no, I wasn't there to rob her, and in fact would protect her if someone else tried. All smiles after that, and I pointed out that you never see a holster involved in a real robbery. Then I go back to the waiting room at the jiffy lube, and some guy gets all excercised about it - I look the opposite of a cop to say the least, and asked me if I had a permit etc etc. Of course, I do (but don't need one for open carry) so I just showed it to him, and he was fine after that, I think assuming that I was a really good undercover cop. But he was pretty belligerent about it.
 
So what did you decide to do Bonzo? For my purposes, and for my reasons, I would buy the .45, 9mm and the .40. That way, I have all of them. ; - ):rimshot:
 
I would recommend a .38 revolver or 380 (Ruger LCP) for carry, .45 for the car or the house (if you really want only a handgun for the house)...

But, a handgun in the house is a good backup for your 12 ga shotgun.

It's hard to hit things with single bullets in the dark or under stress. I'd fully recommend a shotgun for household use. Load up some 00 buckshot or some of those defense rounds in an extended tube, 18-inch barreled shotgun and you are good to go.

I'd choose Ruger for handguns (auto or revolver) and Remington for shotguns. You could always go with a high end 1911 .45, but I find that many of them require a lot of care before they become reliable.

I won't buy any Smiths because of that stupid lock that they put on almost all of their guns... revolvers included. (Except they make a version of the 642 in .38 with no lock) I won't even buy a Smith without it, since that lock is a dumb corporate policy / decision.

Whatever you choose, I'm glad to see more guns out there in the hands of the public!

:wave:
 
ADK,
The rule is that a handgun is just a tool to allow you to get to your battle rifle. ; - )
 
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I agree, 100%...

Honestly, I have a good selection of handguns, but the one I carry the most is the little LCP. The best handgun is the one that you carry.

 
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