Miners will need $3,000 gold price to be profitable, WGC head says

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Unobtanium

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I found this interesting because I have never seen numbers before that describe what gold price/oz that the miners need to break even.

This raises the question then, how did they make a profit between 1982-2005 when gold was < 450/oz? Surely mining costs have not gone up three-fold since 2005? If not, then something is wrong with this picture.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/15/peru-mining-wgc-idUSL1E8GF0AR20120515

 
Good stuff there Unobtanium. What a lot of folks do not realize is that gold mines no longer have large veins of pure gold sitting in quartz veins waiting to be exploited. Barring some random discovery of some unknown gold reserve/vein, the quality of gold mines will continue to degrade. As it is, most gold mines are graded in grams of gold recovered per ton of material removed for processing. Again, that's GRAMS of gold per ton. Think about the energy requirements for extraction of this gold. It is absolutely astounding.

In South Africa, some of the largest mines are now miles and miles deep, necessitating incredible energy output to get an ounce of marketable gold.

This will certainly be something to monitor.
 
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Ah yes, I remember seeing a video recently showing that the grams of extracted gold per ton of material was on a decreasing spiral.

I also found this 15-year-old statistic at:
http://www.galmarley.com/framesets/fs_commodity_essentials_faqs.htm

The average production cost of the world's biggest producer - South Africa - is about $238 per troy ounce. 1997 industry estimates by the Federal Reserve Board suggested an average production cost worldwide of $300 per ounce.
 
OK, now let's project the above curve out another decade or so. The price pressure on gold (and silver) is going to be tremendous well BEFORE this line gets to zero grams/ton in 2025-2030.

This, I believe, will drive the increase of the price of gold at a higher rate than inflation, being simply exacerbated by the QE printing of money. In other words, you will be able to get several high-end men's suits for an oz of gold in the very near future.

IMHO, the projections of gold at $3000, $5000, $10000+/oz in the near future now seem even more real to me; and this being possible even without a Mad Max, SHTF, all-hell-breaks-loose world.

 
Tou know, there are thousands of square miles of land that is high in ore but off limits to prospecting. This is not fertile crorn belt stuff either, it's forbidding mountainous desert shit. The Government has seen fit to stop all prospecting in a lot of areas. I don't know if this is calculated or shat, but it is at the least, maddening.
 
...we are clearly at (or post) peak everything - gold is but another natural resource, that is FINITE, which inevitably conflicts with our "infinite growth required and built in" economic/monetary theories and policies.

same with copper, silver, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL to learn that the costs of manufacturing something elementary have risen two-threefold since 15 years ago. That we as the people do not experience such a drastic inflation in our everyday shopping, is mainly due to continuously lowering the quality of the produce we buy everyday. But try to compare the prices of STUFF, hardcore STUFF, that cannot be cheapened (i.e.: grade steel, grade plywood, etc. ), because it is what it is, and no amount of tinkering can make it a "cheaper mouse trap" - it's price has risen dramatically. Even things like stupid minced meat - however rising in prices very high - if someone 15 years ago sold me a minced "meat", which "Ingredients" section on the packaging says "Meat content: 60%", He would go out of business immediately. Today - it is a norm in supermarkets - I never buy brands anymore, I read the "ingredients" sections only. And this is only what they let me KNOW about their ingredients, I am not kidding myself - still, better than not reading them.

My point is, that industries, who use base, hardcore, elementary stuff as their input (mining seems to be one of them), they simply cannot possibly tint their input "meat" with soy, pink slime and fuck knows what else - they need to use grade steel, grade plywood (...). So their costs MUST rise, appropriately.

EDIT: Unobtanium: that falling grade chart, answers very directly your original question about the costs of mining - if the grade was ~4 in '90ties, and it is ~1 now - they have to mince 4 times as much rock, to get the same amount of metal produced. That is costly, I'd say - energy hungry, equipment eating, chemicals, etc..... At least four times increase of base costs, and it does not take into account rising prices of "stuff" they use, to mince through all that rock... Phew, one have to mince >30tons of rocks for one Eagle coin, that tells us something about the resource depletion...
 
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Here is a pretty good interview with the USGS Mineral Commodities Specialist Micheal George about gold mining.

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1337842431.php

 
More about gold reserves, from:
minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/mcs/2012/mcs2012.pdf

Reserve Base.
That part of an identified resource that
meets specified minimum physical and chemical
criteria related to current mining and production
practices, including those for grade, quality,
thickness, and depth.

The reserve base is the inplace
demonstrated (measured plus indicated)
resource from which reserves are estimated.

It may encompass those parts of the resources that have a
reasonable potential for becoming economically
available within planning horizons beyond those that
assume proven technology and current economics.

The reserve base includes those resources that are
currently economic (reserves), marginally economic
(marginal reserves), and some of those that are
currently subeconomic (subeconomic resources).

The term “geologic reserve” has been applied by others
generally to the reserve-base category, but it also
may include the inferred-reserve-base category; it is
not a part of this classification system.


Inferred Reserve Base.
The in-place part of an identified resource from which inferred reserves are
estimated. Quantitative estimates are based largely
on knowledge of the geologic character of a deposit
and for which there may be no samples or
measurements.

The estimates are based on an
assumed continuity beyond the reserve base, for
which there is geologic evidence.

Reserves.
That part of the reserve base which could
be economically extracted or produced at the time of
determination. The term reserves need not signify
that extraction facilities are in place and operative.
Reserves include only recoverable materials; thus,
terms such as “extractable reserves” and
“recoverable reserves” are redundant and are not a
part of this classification system.

Marginal Reserves.
That part of the reserve base
which, at the time of determination, borders on being
economically producible. Its essential characteristic is
economic uncertainty. Included are resources that
would be producible, given postulated changes in
economic or technological factors.

Economic.
This term implies that profitable extraction
or production under defined investment assumptions
has been established, analytically demonstrated, or
assumed with reasonable certainty.

Subeconomic Resources.
The part of identified
resources that does not meet the economic criteria of
reserves and marginal reserves.
 
http://www.hyperinflation-us.com/world_gold_supply_mining.html

 
Thanks for the interesting article, Unobtainum!

I've wondered, for quite a while, what the cost of production was for silver. I've just never got around to researching it.

Other than peak PMs, my curiosity is now piqued.

ADK
 

It is both true, and untrue. True, increasing price of commodities, make the deposits, that would be otherwise economically unobtainable, all of the sudden, reasonable to explore. IF we consider gold price rising alone, that is. Same mechanism works here for tar sands, deep water drilling etc.

BUT....
with one caveat. To tap to these lower & lower grade resources, we need to do two things:
first: literally, destroy whole counties, to claw ever-decreasing fractions of metals, from ever-increasing mountains of.... mountains? I don't have time now to google the images of copper mines, which are now huge holes in the ground, where the mountain used to be, but they look similar to that one:
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/330copper.html

second: with that known, how do you think it is, in terms of ENERGY required, to mince and further process, a fecking mountain? IF the oil is going north as it is, for the same reason (cheap & easy to get resource depletion) - all of the sudden, even the CURRENTLY economically viable deposits, might become unprofitable. (specifically: how ever-increasing oil price will affect the profitability/sustainability of the mining operations, in both current-grade deposits, let alone these supposedly "vast" lower-grade ones?). Like you said: miners need $1300/OZ, to cover their costs. That is with TODAY'S energy prices, right? But what will be the price per OZ required, if energy price doubled? Why people make the assumption, that "gold price will continue to rise, making worse-grade deposits profitable", without coming to quite a symmetrical conclusion, that oil (by extension: energy) price, will follow at same or even faster pace (increasing developing world competition for their bite of the ever-shrinking cake of cheap energy), making these lower-grade ores non-economical back again?

(...)and if humans want more badly enough, we can get it.
ahh, typical economic arrogance, that assumes our greed and lust will overcome physics, somehow, just because we want something. I think that all economists in the world, must have been very spoiled children, who grew up thinking that the whole world will make an exception to the laws of physics and even some algebra, just because they want it so bad.

In terms of depleting easy-obtainable oil, there is simple measure, when the party stops. Marginal barrel, which is when we spend a barrel of energy equivalent, to get one barrel off the ground and to the pump. (Think about it as all of the energy that has been put in place over the lifetime of the derrick - starting with... getting the ore off the ground, process it to make steel, transport, assemble&maintain that steel into an oil derrick, etc, etc.). We are at the collision course for these two graphs to cross . I mean, we spent more & more energy, to get new oil fields online. And these new oil fields, are not even enough, to offsert the decline in the cheap & easy ones. And we do that stuff in ever harsher environments (Deep Water Horizon, anyone?). We went from these:
http://mercurymasterpunk.ca/images/oil_derrick.jpg
to these
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0320-02.htm
...and it takes A LOT of embedded energy to make and use them. Not to mention the risks...

I don't know how to make the analogy of "marginal barrel" for gold, but these "theoretical abundance" mind-exercises fall short of taking even the parallel effects to their own assumptions into consideration, let alone other real-world factors.

Amusingly (not!), our economic policies/frameworks, were designed in times, when the capital scarcity was the main problem - there were always new resources available, if we could manage to get together enough capital to work, to get them out of the ground. Thus, all the scholars in the field of economy, all the Bernankes, Draghis and others, operate under that false assumption, that it is, and always will be the case (while it is even an algebraic impossibility, not even a real-world one). While it clearly is not, anymore.
 
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Yup, we've pretty much "high-graded" everything at this point, only minor exceptions exist. New tech might overcome some of that for some things, but not for most.

Gold from ocean water is *almost* worth it and will be if prices rise enough, but that's more or less the same situation. You take some out, and at some point the concentration of what's left goes down. That is, unless you can store whole oceans of already processed seawater someplace instead of having to put it back to dilute whats left. Good luck with that!
 
Thanks bushi and DC. You comments make the extrapolated curve in post #5 and even more curious and interesting curve.
 
Yeah, in terms of supply/demand, I think that if traders had ANY idea about what is going on in the real world, and that unlike technical analysis, charts, electrons, derivatives casino, "money for nothing" creation and talking heads world, there are very hard LIMITS of what we could possibly get from Earth - they should already killing each other over what' s left in non-renewable commodities. See what Chinese are doing...

Gold is but one of them, but similar charts can be drawn for almost anything today.

What is scary, and puts us on a direct crash course, is that our economic/monetary systems, (as of today), they require year-on-year exponential growth of economy - just to prevent them from collapsing. So, to be compatible with even TODAY's resource extraction rates, we would need technology to provide reverse-exponential upgrades in material usage, year on year. Can you imagine that each year, the stuff that we manufacture & consume, uses x% less and less base material & energy to manufacture (where x is equal to real GDP growth, to stay flat with base resource usage)? I mean, yes, it happens, we are getting more and more crap products for our money (heuristics in CPI, anyone? ), but hey, we simply cannot possibly keep the pace with consumption growth by cheapening the designs, at ever-increasing pace. And it wouldn't even reduce resource usage, only keep it at today's levels. (Example: let's assume you are world-only chair maker, and you HAVE to increase your production by x% yearly, to sustain world's economy, and you can only use 100 trees a year (=flat resource usage). So, you would need to use less and less timber per chair every year, and that would have to go DOWN exponentially, as reverse to your yearly production growth. Pretty soon, your timber content per chair would be close to zero. That is simply impossible in the real world.

Space mining... The only viable option, going forward? But is it possible at all? And the energy requirements for that to happened... My gosh.
 

If you can not increase the "value", just play with the underlying rules. To raise the amount of USD the same house is worth exponentially, just devalue the USD exponentially!

Take a look at the half life curve of USD priced in gold grams:
http://pricedingold.com/2012/06/08/usd-update-7-jun-2012/
 
but benjamen, should such debasement ever "work" economically, I would be living as a king in Poland (actually, we all Poles would), haven't been emigrated, Russian empire wouldn't collapse, and I wouldn't be typing it, for I wouldn't be allowed the luxury of open communication from behind the Iron Curtain.

There is the real component of GDP growth, and there is monetary/inflationary component of it (caused by increasing money supply). The second one is a hidden tax/theft of capital, by government/CB. If inflating GDP by printing money could ever lead to anything else than destruction of an economy, well, that's all that we would ever need to do. But I haven't seen this implemented successfully, and I really struggle to call it anything but a nonsense. Besides, it is strongly inflationary, and there's no way around it.
 

I believe most GDP growth reported by countries is merely due to the devaluation of their currency. Take a look at the U.S.; every time the stock market drops, the FED prints a boat load of money, devalues the USD, and stock prices, valued in USD, go up. This is the "feel good" effect. They are less wealthy than before (because you get taxed on your "profits"), but most people are happier because the USD number next to their stocks is higher.
 
good thread.

Just wanted to suggest that rather than worry about reprocessing the same bit of sea water too many times, a better approach might be to set up at a river mouth with a directional flow of higher gold content water
 
Hi,

Just came across that curiosity re: some of the costs erlated to mining (I cannot post the source nor more content here, it is on the paid report I am subscribed to, I believe it would violate their copyrights - but as I post it below, it is completely out of context, and doesn't not infringe on their copyrights, I believe):

For example, one of the most popular mining trucks today costs a whopping $2.7 MILLION. Each tire costs $30,000... and the annual fuel costs run more than $1 million per truck!

so here we go - some of the costs of stuff that goes as "input" for miners. This stuff is very likely to only go up in price in case of shrinking supply (resource depletion), pushing either required ore quality OR price/OZ upwards, for miners to stay profitable.

So the stories of "we have plenty of X on that planet, it is just that it is not commercially viable to mine for it, today, because price is too low", are fairy tales, without any real footing.
 
Bushi,
With gold around 15,000 dollars an ounce, it becomes economically viable to "mine" it from seawater. I read somewhere that the ocean contains a huge amount of gold, only it is too costly to extract. Given a high enough return on investment, it is economically viable to mine even tiny fractions of an ounce per ton of spoil.
 

Unfortunately, most of those estimates assume only gold skyrocketed in USD price. In reality, if gold is that high it most likely means high inflation. Therefore, how much would oil, wages, and other mining expenses also skyrocket?

If under current conditions it cost $14,000 to "mine" seawater for gold, how much would it cost to do so in the situation of high inflation?

 
Naturally Benjamen, this hypothetical number is merely a guess. If one presumes that there is no inflation, and that the manipulation of metals has been corraled, and that the free market and popular demand are determining the price, and that paper derivatives and ETF's have been banned, ano on and on and on.

In the real world, gold will never be "mined" from seawater because it is simply too prohibitive and will always be so.
 
yeah that's my whole point - if "inputs" costs for miners are rising alongside (or quicker, as I presume might be the case for oil) with gold spot, it doesn't necessarily mean that lower grade deposits become economically viable, in fact, it might very well mean quite the opposite - because of increased input costs, even the current grade ores might become unprofitable.

Basically, I think people doing this quick mental exercise 'there is X times more resources in earth crust, that we ever mined - we "only" need the technology to effectively mine the lower (in fact, diminishing) grade ore - and higher commodity prices, will make that new technology economically viable', are falling short of considering parallel effects to their own reasoning, not to mention the hard reality "in the trenches".

Fact is, record high oil prices, for example, haven't helped to pump out more oil since 2004, I believe - world crude production remains pretty much flat, despite "unthinkable" a decade ago prices. Why, I ask myself, are people not willing to cash on these historically high prices? Or maybe they are pumping flat out and cashing in as much as they can, but simply cannot increase the production any more. Which seems to be the case.
 
Why Mine?

So a couple of points here.

First is says one of the factors for why costs have spiked is tariffs, taxes, etc from governments. OK, so if the government makes it too expensive to do, they won't do it. Then the government has to back off if they want the income. This will always be an ongoing push/pull scenario.

Second, we stop mining? What does that due to supply/demand. Supply stays fixed, demand increases, therefore....price increases. Since about 2000 when gold started to sky rocket the demand to mine has been increased quite a bit, this mining has kept up supply and thereby actually probably kept the cost down. W/o mining the price will only go up, yes?
 
...yes I agree, any way I try to look at this, it is bullish long term for gold that has been MINED already (like the one in my stack ) - unless the banksters succeed in making everyone so scared to even touch it, so the retail demand would die. I do not think it is possible, long term. Try as they might.
 
...
Second, we stop mining? What does that due to supply/demand. ...

I would guess that as production falls off, price will rise and then some production will resume. Net-net, production will likely diminish, but not stop altogether.
 
Under the Sea!!!

So I just published this little blurb, thought it was relavent to what we were talking about here. However, I couldn't find anything on how much they'd expect it to cost per oz for undersea mining. If anyone can find numbers on this, I'd greatly appreciate it and add it to the article.



http://goldtrustfinancial.com/my_news/new-gold-supply-from-under-the-sea/
 
...yeah, apparently there is a lot of gold and other valuable stuff in the asteroids belt as well.. to me it is still in the same realm of fantasy, getting actual hold on any of these..
 
I don't know if it has been said in this thread already, but I distinctly remember a link I made to a USGS survey done of Afghanistan Rare Earth Minerals estimated at $4 Trillion. And that survey was done with some pretty fancy equipment. If I'm repeating myself or anyone else, sorry. I'm tired and hungover.
 
I think we need to be careful with blanket statements. Mining costs depend greatly on the specific project. I know of one project up in alaska that costs 600 per ounce currently. However there are other projects in brazil that cost north of 1700 so theu mothballed their mines. I also know of some poorly managed companies that made a 600 per ounce project into a 1200 per ounce project.

My advice is to look for growth in reserves and margin expansion. Also, don't be afraid of the toronto exchange
 
Here is a bit more about PM mining in China, with respect for the demand for gold in China:

 
I believe China is slowly building their reserves to ultimately back their currency. They see the end of another era of fiat and are planning appropriately. I further believe they now have the largest gold reserves in the world, irrespective of what the pundits say.
 
Below are some excerpts from the article.

 
Chart: Global gold production vs demand

Here is the complete article
http://bmgbullion.com/doc_bin/Chart of the Week_10.08.12.pdf

And here are two charts from the article, showing an every-increasing gold deficit:

Global gold production, demand and deficit (by year):






Global gold production, demand and deficit (CUMULATIVE):




And here is an excerpt from the article addressing problems with overcoming the growing deficit:
 
Here is another excellent chart showing gold mining from 1850 to 2008, with commentary from two different sources. One commentary is quoted below, and a link to the second commentary is here:
http://jutiagroup.com/20090415-where-have-all-the-gold-mines-gone/





 
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