True costs of EVs revealed by bombshell report out of a Texas think tank

[JayDubya]

True costs of EVs revealed by bombshell report out of a Texas think tank​

The electric vehicle industry is barely making it with all the cushy subsidies, grants, and backroom deals… imagine if these car companies were actually forced to manufacture a sellable and profitable product, and produce their own wealth instead of just stealing ours?

https://www.americanthinker.com/blo...mbshell_report_out_of_a_texas_think_tank.html

 

[pmbug]

I think what a lot of people miss about the West's push for EVs is that it really isn't about pollution or the Earth. It's about cutting the puppet strings from OPEC nations and untangling political obligations to the middle east. $.02

 

[Viking]

I think what a lot of people miss about the West's push for EVs is that it really isn't about pollution or the Earth. It's about cutting the puppet strings from OPEC nations and untangling political obligations to the middle east. $.02

North America has plenty of oil. We don’t need OPEC.

 

[pmbug]

North America has plenty of oil. We don’t need OPEC.

But the world does and as long as they are needing and buying oil, we need them to transact in US dollars. Also, OPEC can move the price for oil which can cause economic booms or recessions if they tilt the price too far in a given direction.

 

[Viking]

But the world does and as long as they are needing and buying oil, we need them to transact in US dollars. Also, OPEC can move the price for oil which can cause economic booms or recessions if they tilt the price too far in a given direction.

Wait, what? We need them to transact in US dollars. But we are pushing for EVs to solve our problems with them selling oil? “It's about cutting the puppet strings from OPEC nations”

 

[pmbug]

Wait, what? ...

The West is trying to cut their dependence on the middle east (economically -> politically -> militarily). Back when George W. ran the show, we were besties with Saudi Arabia. They used us as their proxy to reshape the middle east and the PNAC neoconservatives in Bush's inner circle were all for it for their own purposes (Israel). Thus the the march to the Iraq war based upon fabricated lies of WMDs.

Everything changed when Obama got the crown. He did not play nice with Saudi Arabia (we failed to invade Iran or Syria) and relations soured. It was around this time that the big push for renewable energy began in earnest. It was not, IMO, just a coincidence. The Obama admin (and allies in Europe) made a decision to cut out the middle east's economic leverage so we didn't have to dance on their strings.

Things have been very rocky ever since with Saudi Arabia. Trump more or less continued Obama's middle east policy avoiding war with Syria and Iran and Biden has also continued to hold the line. KSA got more aggressive after the death of old King Salman and the rise of MbS (KSA threatening to abandon trading oil in dollars, Khashoggi murder, OPEC cuts to drive the oil price just before election time, flirting with the BRICS, etc.).

If the world loses it's dependence upon middle east oil, it no longer depends upon KSA's good graces for the stability of the petrodollar. I can only surmise that the think tanks who game theory this shit have concluded that such a change would not hurt the balance of global dollar trade or the dollar's global reserve status. I would guess that this only works if the entire West manages the migration (to renewable energy sources) together.

I could be wrong, but that's how it looks to me.

Edit: Forgot to mention KSA's war/atrocities in Yemen which were largely kept quiet/not reported here in the USA.

 

[Viking]

The West is trying to cut their dependence on the middle east (economically -> politically -> militarily). Back when George W. ran the show, we were besties with Saudi Arabia. They used us as their proxy to reshape the middle east and the PNAC neoconservatives in Bush's inner circle were all for it for their own purposes (Israel). Thus the the march to the Iraq war based upon fabricated lies of WMDs.

Everything changed when Obama got the crown. He did not play nice with Saudi Arabia (we failed to invade Iran or Syria) and relations soured. It was around this time that the big push for renewable energy began in earnest. It was not, IMO, just a coincidence. The Obama admin (and allies in Europe) made a decision to cut out the middle east's economic leverage so we didn't have to dance on their strings.

Things have been very rocky ever since with Saudi Arabia. Trump more or less continued Obama's middle east policy avoiding war with Syria and Iran and Biden has also continued to hold the line. KSA got more aggressive after the death of old King Salman and the rise of MbS (KSA threatening to abandon trading oil in dollars, Khashoggi murder, OPEC cuts to drive the oil price just before election time, flirting with the BRICS, etc.).

If the world loses it's dependence upon middle east oil, it no longer depends upon KSA's good graces for the stability of the petrodollar. I can only surmise that the think tanks who game theory this shit have concluded that such a change would not hurt the balance of global dollar trade or the dollar's global reserve status. I would guess that this only works if the entire West manages the migration (to renewable energy sources) together.

I could be wrong, but that's how it looks to me.

Edit: Forgot to mention KSA's war/atrocities in Yemen which were largely kept quiet/not reported here in the USA.

Like I said, we have plenty oil in North America. If what you are saying were true, the government shouldn’t be shutting down drilling, but increasing it. Also increasing the use of nuclear energy.

 

[Casey Jones]

More oil is used, drawing board to scrapyard, in designing, making, operating, maintaining, and scrapping an EV than a conventional automobile.

PLUS the environmental damage, and the third-world subsistence mining, done to find lithium.

We haven't even begun to calculate the horrific, toxic fires these things are commonly involved in. Nor the cost of damage to structures such as garages - which seldom are destroyed with modern ICE cars; and even if a fire DOES break out in a garage, it often is contained TO the garage. Not so with the incredibly-intense lithium-battery fires.

No, I don't have links at my fingertips. Just keep this in mind, as the figures come through...as the public slowly becomes aware of the eco-farce these things are generating.

 

[Ttazzman]

The US has the world's largest untaped oil reserves....surpassing the Saudis....as per google

I can only speculate about motives ...

 

[searcher]

Along the same lines as the o/p. dyodd

From the link:

With signs of growing inventory and slowing sales, auto industry executives admitted this week that their ambitious electric vehicle plans are in jeopardy, at least in the near term.

Several C-Suite leaders at some of the biggest carmakers voiced fresh unease about the electric car market's growth as concerns over the viability of these vehicles put their multi-billion-dollar electrification strategies at risk.

Among those hand-wringing is GM's Mary Barra, historically one of the automotive industry's most bullish CEOs on the future of electric vehicles. GM has been an early-mover in the electric car market, selling the Chevrolet Bolt for seven years and making bold claims about a fully electric future for the company long before its competitors got on board.

Auto execs are coming clean: EVs aren't working

From GM to Tesla to Mercedes, execs across the auto industry are tempering expectations on electric vehicles.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Wellsburg]

If they force us to drive these shitty battery cars, we can tell the Middle East we don't need them any more for the oil.

But, we need to kiss China's ass for the battery components?

Gee, why don't we just drill and mine stuff here? Then, we can tell all of them to get lost.

 

[JayDubya]

And then we have Toyota who has developed an engine that runs on ammonia​

Corrosion Of Conformity: Toyota Takes Aim At EVs With Ammonia Engine​

Over the years, Toyota has made quite a buzz for its alternative energy ideas, and forward-thinking fueling goals. Does anyone recall that hydrogen-powered 5.0-liter V8 RC-F engine that Toyota commissioned a couple of years back? Yeah, pretty forward-thinking stuff indeed.

But hydrogen engines and (yawn) hybrid motors aren’t the only things that Toyota is dabbling in. As more and more people discover that their EV batteries are far worse for the environment and human health than automakers would have you know, alternative fuels have quickly become the hot topic of discussion.

Take all of the buzz surrounding that engine that Toyota built in collaboration with Chinese automaker GAC Motor. Apparently, this thing is designed to slurp on ammonia and produce power without any carbon dioxide emissions from the tailpipe.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-t...-toyota-takes-aim-at-evs-with-ammonia-engine/

 

[pmbug]

...
Gee, why don't we just drill and mine stuff here? ...

Rabbit hole for you:

The largest lithium deposit in the world is ripe for more sustainable mining

Scientists studying the McDermitt Caldera in Nevada and Oregon think they've found a new, more sustainable way to mine lithium.

www.popsci.com

 

[Casey Jones]

If they force us to drive these shitty battery cars, we can tell the Middle East we don't need them any more for the oil.

But, we need to kiss China's ass for the battery components?

Gee, why don't we just drill and mine stuff here? Then, we can tell all of them to get lost.

Because we're supposed to FAIL. It's their plans.

De-industrialize, de-populate, de-laminate as a society and as a nation.

Global Government is the aim - controlled by Klaus and his cast of idiots.

And they are idiots. They're very successful at destroying things - which is all that idiots can do. We've seen NOTHING they have built, or can build.

 

[Joe King]

I think what a lot of people miss about the West's push for EVs is that it really isn't about pollution or the Earth. It's about cutting the puppet strings from OPEC nations and untangling political obligations to the middle east. $.02

That's an even dumber reason than saying they are pushing EV's in order save the Planet from pollution.

Gasoline is but one product we get from oil. In order to not need their oil, we would need to find replacements for ALL products currently derived from oil.
...and if we'll still need all the other products, what will we do with the gasoline that will naturally result from the refining process used to get those other products?

Until there was a use for gasoline, it was a waste by-product. Ie: something to be disposed of.

 

[Joe King]

As for the true cost of EV's as talked of in the OP, did they include the cost of the pollution released when the cars catch on fire? If not, they need to.

 

[pmbug]

... Gasoline is but one product we get from oil. In order to not need their oil, we would need to find replacements for ALL products currently derived from oil. ...

Found nifty graphic:



here:

Refining crude oil - inputs and outputs - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

An overview of and data on inputs of crude oil and other liquids in oil refineries and resulting products of oil refining.

www.eia.gov

The west doesn't need to reduce oil trade to zero to mitigate middle east oil dependency. Gasoline for autos make up the majority product demand for crude oil.

 

[Joe King]

Found nifty graphic:

View attachment 10872

here:

Refining crude oil - inputs and outputs - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

An overview of and data on inputs of crude oil and other liquids in oil refineries and resulting products of oil refining.

www.eia.gov

The west doesn't need to reduce oil trade to zero to mitigate middle east oil dependency. Gasoline for autos make up the majority product demand for crude oil.

But we still need all those other products.

If by using EV's the demand for gasoline drops by 90%, will the demand for everything else on that list also drop by 90%?

If not, the oil required to produce them will still result in vast quantities of gasoline that is no longer needed.
....and it can't be burnt for other uses, at that would defeat the reasons for not burning it in car engines.

 

[pmbug]

... If not, the oil required to produce them will still result in vast quantities of gasoline that is no longer needed. ...

No. Refining processes would adjust to produce the products refiners can sell.

 

[Joe King]

No. Refining processes would adjust to produce the products refiners can sell.

So they can refine a barrel of oil and get only the products they want? That the 49% of oil that is gasoline can be changed into plastic, or diesel fuel, or asphalt instead of gasoline?

 

[pmbug]

So they can refine a barrel of oil and get only the products they want? ...

To a large degree. If a refinery is producing jet fuel, there will be some residuals that eventually end up as a byproduct, but gasoline is not a byproduct - it takes a lot of (dedicated/targeted) processing to produce from crude. The byproduct from gasoline refining isn't making all the other categories either. Most of the useful products are the result of primary refining processes (not byproducts).

 

[Joe King]

To a large degree.

How large, is a large degree?

Considering the amount of crude being refined, even a small percent being wasted is a huge amount.

is not a byproduct - it takes a lot of (dedicated/targeted) processing to produce from crude

So that same dedication and targeting can be used to produce something completely other than gasoline? That a barrel of oil can be refined without ending up with anything they do not want?
....and when I called it a byproduct, I was referring to back when oil was first being refined and prior to the internal combustion engine. In that the the portion of crude containing the hydrocarbons that would be used to make gas, had no use at the time and was considered a waste byproduct of the refining process.

That is what I had previously read about gasoline and why it began being used as a fuel in cars, as there was no other use for it at the time.

 

[pmbug]

I'm not a petroleum engineer. I can't speak with authority on actual percentages of waste/byproduct for different refining processes. I just know that they can target the product(s) they want to refine. This might help:

 

[Casey Jones]

How large, is a large degree?

Considering the amount of crude being refined, even a small percent being wasted is a huge amount.



So that same dedication and targeting can be used to produce something completely other than gasoline? That a barrel of oil can be refined without ending up with anything they do not want?
....and when I called it a byproduct, I was referring to back when oil was first being refined and prior to the internal combustion engine. In that the the portion of crude containing the hydrocarbons that would be used to make gas, had no use at the time and was considered a waste byproduct of the refining process.

That is what I had previously read about gasoline and why it began being used as a fuel in cars, as there was no other use for it at the time.

Once upon a time, before the auto was ubiquitous...but well after we'd found petroleum oil to lubricate steam equipment, and found kerosene for lamps...

...gasoline was considered a waste product of drilling. Yes, gasoline occurs in nature. Not great quantities of it; but it was there, and originally, it was what early motorists used. The sudden demand for it, led engineers to discover the "cracking" process.

But prior to the auto age, gasoline, a waste product, was just burned off.

Natural gas, is STILL burned off of wells in remote areas where there's no infrastructure to pipe it to a storage facility.

Heavy crude oil was another waste product that took time to discover a use for. But, my point is, it's not that what they pull up is "oil" and it can be magically transformed into any needed product. Some of it can; some of it is less suitable; and some is unsuitable.

 

[Joe King]

But prior to the auto age, gasoline, a waste product, was just burned off.

That's what I was getting at.

 

[searcher]

A couple of articles on EVs. DYODD

I Visited Over 120 EV Chargers: Three Reasons Why So Many Were Broken​

No, I didn’t do all that to earn a Guinness World Record (though I’ll gladly accept one if that’s a thing). I did it because everyone is talking about America’s Big EV-Charging Problem, and I wanted to investigate all the little problems that make up the Big Problem.

As a Ford Mustang Mach-E driver, I’m no stranger to these frustrations. Many of you have also shared your charging horror stories with me since I began my ad-EV-nture. So I set out to quantify these concerns in the best place possible: La-La Land.

I Visited Over 120 EV Chargers: Three Reasons Why So Many Were Broken

Our columnist’s Los Angeles power struggle featured out-of-order signs, payment errors and connection problems.

www.wsj.com

Electric Vehicles Might Not Yet Have Replaced as Much Car Mileage as Hoped​

CLIMATEWIRE | Electric vehicles may one day dominate U.S. roads, but for now, they’re spending a lot of time in the driveway.

New research published in the academic journal Joule found that drivers of gasoline-powered cars rack up nearly 4,500 more miles annually than those with electric vehicles. It’s a notable finding — and one that analysts say could have an impact on everything from climate models to emissions regulations.

Electric Vehicles Might Not Yet Have Replaced as Much Car Mileage as Hoped

Without policies to promote electric vehicle purchases and build up charging infrastructure, such vehicles might produce fewer emissions reductions than hoped

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Goldhedge]

Here's the future of EV's... count on it.

 

[Goldhedge]

If they can hack there, anyone can hack anywhere...!

video at link
30 thousand electric vehicles stopped working together with all the electric filling stations in Lithuania, due to Russian hackers from the Just Evil group (ex-KillNet).

Russian cyber specialists gained access to the entire management system of the state-owned company Ignitis Grupė, which is engaged in the production of electricity, its distribution and provision of services throughout the Baltic states as well as in Finland and Poland.

They have promised to publish data on all clients, among them, for example, Ikea, which left the Russian Federation and Ivel’s access keys, and then block access to charging stations forever.

Two Majors (http://t.me/two_majors) | Boost us (https://t.me/two_majors?boost)

 

[Goldhedge]

Something I didn't know

 

[Casey Jones]

Grate fer the environment, huh, Greta.