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Old 03-05-2012, 06:27 PM   #1
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Talking with the family.

A little back ground first.

My father is a working stiff and I wasn't raised on a silver spoon. Same situation applies today. I'm a working stiff and my girlfriend's kids aren't being raised on a silver spoon.

A long time ago, my father set some $$ aside for me for a nest egg. Whatever I needed it for, it would be there for me. My mother, (they were divorced by then), answered with the same amount, in my name, to be viewed well in the eyes of the court system due to a custody battle. After the fight was over, and my mother lost the fight for my custody, she made me sit down at a bank and sign all of that money back over to her. It was 28 $500 bonds or T-Bills or whatever they were, so $14k. I've never seen that money since, and it is obviously no longer even in the picture of my life. I maintain a relationship with my mother, and money just isn't something we talk about.

However, my father's contribution has appreciated well enough over the years, and he wasn't a thieving Indian giver, so it is still invested for me. I do not know how much it is worth today. I know that is has survived the market crashes since my childhood. It was enough for a college education more or less, and intended for that, but I went and earned my own education money through military service and the G.I. Bill.

Since I don't need the money for school, it basically has become a trust with little purpose other than to grow, or buy a new house when I outgrow this one... I'm really not sure what I would do with it at this point is what I guess I'm trying to say. At this point in my life, I have been and continue to be a completely self made person. My father was the type of man that made me go out and do work to earn everything I've had in life. Everything from my first Nintendo, to my first car, to my first home, etc. Nothing has been given.

The 'trust', while rather small in comparison to what most might consider a trust fund, is still basically tied up in stock. Since we're nearing a point in the market that it has rebounded from the 2007-2009 shit, and from last year, but I'm concerned about the European issue, like everyone else most likely is. I need to convince him that selling, or at least diversifying before the next and bigger correction is not only necessary, but imminent.

Well, for the better part of 9 months I have been passing along informative articles to my father about LTRO, QE, inflation, Europe, gold, and silver, etc. Today we were talking, and as always, I asked him if he'd read the email and attachments and links I had given him. He said he had, but the bulk of our conversation mostly consisted of trying to spell out how inflation is something that will never go away, and how it will only get worse due to current policy. He tried to make the same fatherly point that I'm used to him making that, the game is written by TPTB, and we gotta play by their rules, there isn't much we can do about it, and if I know a way to profit from the current rules, I should try to do it.

I tried to explain to him that yield shouldn't be the driving force of what we do with 100% of our money. Mind you, he's 63 and a product of 'buy and hold'. He never once told me that as a kid that silver or gold were worthwhile investments, and to this day he says things like, "You don't want to buy that." (Verbatim)

Now, I cannot argue with him that buying and holding a smart stock purchase 30 years ago would have been the wrong call, but he just doesn't seem warm to the idea of the benefit of a gold or silver purchase, even though I told him I'd made 30% just from silver this year alone. The hardest part is that he has no interest in hearing about collapse of anything, because he's been hearing the same shit since 1950 etc. He just doesn't give it any merit. Doom and gloom has been around for decades. He grew up hearing about 'how it was' from his parents etc. So how do I try and help him see that the dollar's future is a BIG unknown, and that buying some PM's NOW is much better than paying HIGH dollar down the road?

Man there is just so much to say about this, and I feel like I've really put a lot out there already. I know the personal info is more or less just details, but the main question stands.

How do you convince a product of the biggest economic boom in American history to lose a little faith in it all, and to buy some PM's?

Thanks all!

P.S. My father didn't consider a food storage of mine a 'tangible asset'. He thinks a tangible asset is something that should make me money.
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Last edited by KMS; 03-05-2012 at 06:32 PM. Reason: "Tangibles"
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:47 PM   #2
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You don't, because they refuse to listen to reason. I've gone through it and through it with my parents as well, and with the same result. If you want to protect them, then make enough prepatory allocations in your home to accomodate them. They'll refuse to help themselves and we'll need to be there to get them through it. That's the only practical solution I've come up with, because all the words in the world won't change who they are.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:55 PM   #3
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@ ancona

Most people (my family and friends included) just don't want to hear it. They do not even want to consider the possibility that "things could go very wrong." It is frustrating. One of my best friends is fairly well prepared (hurricanes), but refuses to buy silver or gold.

So I have given up.

I am going to guess that only 5%, perhaps, of people think similarly to how most of us here at pmbug.com do. Only 1 / 20 that you meet will "get it."

I suspect that is why so many of us feel at home here. We see something that others do not.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:00 AM   #4
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Deaf ears don't hear. Perhaps a picture? How about some pretty charts of the adjusted monetary base? You could always send him a link to the total perspective vortex thread or give him a copy of Rickards' Currency Wars book if you think he would read them.

Is it really your money or does your dad control it as executor of a legal trust?

My wife had a very small amount of money tied up in some US savings bonds a while back. She took them to the bank and cashed them in and bought some silver with it. IIRC, they were 50 year bonds and earning something like 0.1% interest per year. Really pathetic.
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:54 AM   #5
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Jesus said once, "A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house." (Matthew*13:57)
There is a principle there that holds true in a lot of areas of life.
It is generally hardest to convince those who are closest to you of some truth that you have come to see but they have not.
Just carry on and be prepared that one day you may have to help those who wouldn't listen to you.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:45 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by PMBug View Post:
Deaf ears don't hear. Perhaps a picture? How about some pretty charts of the adjusted monetary base? You could always send him a link to the total perspective vortex thread or give him a copy of Rickards' Currency Wars book if you think he would read them.

Is it really your money or does your dad control it as executor of a legal trust?

My wife had a very small amount of money tied up in some US savings bonds a while back. She took them to the bank and cashed them in and bought some silver with it. IIRC, they were 50 year bonds and earning something like 0.1% interest per year. Really pathetic.
I'm personally reading Currency Wars at the moment. Almost done with it. I figure I'll buy and deliver a copy from Amazon when I'm done reviewing it myself. Along those lines, I've been pretty strict on myself about what I forward to him. It's not all from ZH is what I'm saying. I mean, I've used their articles, especially about LTRO, and QE, but if they read and repost something from a contributor that they follow, I'll go to the source and forward that to him. I don't want him to objectively point out to me that my sources are always the same etc. I'm trying to approach it intelligently, without the addition of ALL the emotion that is obviously involved when dealing with loved ones. Besides, this is money we're talking about - emotions and money shouldn't mix. I've most recently sent him a PDF email attachment of Apropos of Everything and it's follow on in full, for him to read along with me. I am not sure where our review will take our discussion, but just as an example, there you go.

He is the trustee of the fund with my name on it. He jokes from time to time that he's going to buy a new boat with it etc. He always assures me he is joking, not that I believe he really would, just saying. He knows that my mother offered up an equal sum of money, obviously in attempts to be viewed better in the eyes of the court in a custody battle over me, and that she reneged on it. He has reminded me of it and spelled it out for me when I didn't get it, as a younger man, etc.

My true objective is not to try and cash in on the fund. I would rather it continues to benefit in some way from the liquidity being added to the system, and the future liquidity that we all pretty much 'know' will come. With that, most portfolios will generate the yield they should until the next boom bust. My objective is though, to convince him to take some of the profits of reaching DOW13000 again, finally, and saving it in physical.

My biggest hurdle to me feels like convincing him that PM's are a savings and preservation of wealth in an inflationary period, and not just a 'volatile' investment vehicle, which is how he sees them. Further more, convincing him that buying some physical PM's is better than letting it all keep riding the fiat bus.

He uses Morgan Stanley as his money management. He forward me stuff from them when he thinks it is worth passing along. The latest piece he sent me was a question filled 'Personal Investor Profile' that wanted to determine my score against a risk profile, to direct me to match my profile score to a sample portfolio. I mean, what the fuck? I'm way beyond that...

My father is a man of integrity and brutal honesty. He would rather hear me say that I did something horrible than to break the bond of trust. So, in my mind, we're talking 'old school tough' type of stance on life.
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Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin.
But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunists.”
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Last edited by KMS; 03-06-2012 at 12:02 PM. Reason: Clarity on DOW 13k...
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:57 AM   #7
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It can take years...

The best thing you can do is go on record and remind them at a later date. Not in a "I told you so" fashion either. Mention the short comings of your thesis 1st, then the similarities. IE.. I thought they would have already done QE3 by now, but it looks like the LTRO is practically the same thing.

The other aspect is that we simply do not know what is going to happen in the future. If you do a brain storming session with someone where the outcome is NOT predetermined, it could lead to him/her coming to the same conclusion as you OR changing your own opinion. You have to be open to that. If you aren't, the discussion will not go anywhere. It's ok to have friendly debates where there is give and take but it's really important to make sure that you don't talk down to people.

I'd also recommend bridging the gap... When I talk to those of the liberal mindset, I usually try to find common group from where i make my points. For example, I point out that part of the major problem with out political system is that corporate America has bought both parties. To say otherwise is heresy to the occupy movement. Once I have that basic area of agreement, I point out how PACs are able to be funded by the same senators that they helped get elected so at the very least there is a major conflict of interest. Once you get them to realize that it's not just the corporations but the officials in Washington that are corrupt, they suddenly don't want to give them as much power. Their brains start to think that the best way to do this is to spread the responsibilities away from the large government organizations and give it back to the local communities. Point is, that when you walk someone through it, you are able to get them to a more logical conclusion. It took 6 years but I converted a communist to a libertarian up in Oregon. lol
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:53 PM   #8
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Hi. Thought I'd share my own family experiences.

My mother and father have always trusted me and looked on me as someone with a sound understanding of the world. For that reason, helping them has been easy. My father, before he died, sent me a check for $10,000 one day back in 2003 and asked me to "invest" it for his grandchildren (at the time that was just my sister's two girls). Anyway, with that I bought PMs and have done quite well for the grandchildren (which now include one of my own and a "bun in the oven" which will make two).

After my father died, my mother came into the money that he's had put away (he was always a saver and she a spender). As they owned their house and she got a small pension of his and his social security, she had no need for this extra cash my dad had saved, so I talked her into buying some gold with it. Like I said, "easy".

Now, my problem has been my father-in-law. This guy and his wife listen to me go on and on about fiat money. They live around the world as they have a house in France where they spend summer and my father-in-laws wife's son married a woman in Viet Nam where they live so they spend a couple of months there a year not to mention NZ and Australia. The point being, they are well aware of what's going on with Europe, they understand that people buy houses in Viet Nam in gold and view it as money, but I just couldn't get them to buy any gold or silver. Once, I swear I had my father-in-law ready and then his wife said that he'd be too worried about it and it's best not to do it......UGH!!!

Anyway, just recently, he said that he had given my wife's sister some money to put away for her daughter's education and that he wanted to do the same for our son. We eventually got him to buy some silver for our son. Now because we didn't want to put it in with our stuff, he agreed to open a safe deposit box (not at a bank) in his name and put it in there. Anyway, now that he has that box, I can see that he is suddenly talking about filling it up! Just a couple of days ago his wife called me and wants to help her buy $10,000 worth of silver (unfortunately, it's mostly cause she read some scam artist that told her it was going to $200). Oh well, at least it's a start.

So, good luck to all with your families! Keep plugging at them and eventually they may come around.

Cheers, -Ron
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:02 PM   #9
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Thanks to all that have posted with opinions and even shared some of their own stories so far. I really do appreciate the contributions.
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“The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; the second is war.
Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin.
But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunists.”
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:15 PM   #10
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hey

isnt this the reason we are gathered here ?

one of the few places we can find like minded souls.

Occasionally someone asks me how the gold is doing ( so they were aware of my attempts to educate them ) but im wary of saying too much as the old 'its alright for you' jealousy is easily triggered.

My favourite response is to say that its current increase in price is simply recognising the current level of printing and almost everyone knows about the money printing

Anyway gold is a bubble that will soon explode ........ the Morgue said so
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:56 PM   #11
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The problem I have had is almost all of my parents funds are in non taxable accounts. Therefore can't really just order some pm's and take delivery. Needs to be some custodian involved which I really dont feel comfortable with. I think its fairly easy to do with Bullion Vault but again since they are so wary to begin with seems like just another hurdle.

I kinda help manage some of their funds so put a small amount in the GDX just because I do think they are out of favor right now. So not sure the best solution is.

The weird part was they seemed to be most worried about how they would sell it. Like there is no market for pms. Even after I explained there are thousands of coin shops online and physical stores etc. Guess just was a new concept so they never had experience with it before.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:05 PM   #12
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@KMS - got it. IIRC, you know my history of advocacy in other corners of the internet, so you have an idea how I approach it. Persistence is everything, but only when you are also able to read your audience. Small but steady doses of the truth as you see it (presented as is for the reader to draw their own conclusions) can be powerful. Sowing seeds and all that.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:25 PM   #13
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The great thing about living in modern times is there is so much great free information but its also kind of a curse. You can hear a gazillion different viewpts on where to put your money all from smart reputable people. People get frozen they don't know who to listen to, who to trust. Honestly I can't blame them. Everyone is always learning and incorporating new understanding and information that may alter their view of the world.

Seems like you need to want to learn what is going on in the world and slowly with understanding comes confidence. I spend most of my day reading and trying to understand stuff and I still can think of some weird things that can happen that could make one viewpt right and the other wrong.

Also most people alive in the US have never seen and despair on the homefront so its not a tangible idea they have experience with.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:28 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by escobar View Post:

The weird part was they seemed to be most worried about how they would sell it. Like there is no market for pms. Even after I explained there are thousands of coin shops online and physical stores etc. Guess just was a new concept so they never had experience with it before.
This gold bubble must be the only one in history where people didn't know how to buy it. The lack of public participation is mind boggling.

-end sarcasm-
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:00 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by escobar View Post:
The great thing about living in modern times is there is so much great free information but its also kind of a curse. You can hear a gazillion different viewpts on where to put your money all from smart reputable people. People get frozen they don't know who to listen to, who to trust. Honestly I can't blame them. Everyone is always learning and incorporating new understanding and information that may alter their view of the world.

Seems like you need to want to learn what is going on in the world and slowly with understanding comes confidence. I spend most of my day reading and trying to understand stuff and I still can think of some weird things that can happen that could make one viewpt right and the other wrong.

Also most people alive in the US have never seen and despair on the homefront so its not a tangible idea they have experience with.
I couldn't agree more with this (especially the 'curse' part. I believe too many of us get comfortable in information avenues, regular websites, web groups, forums, and branching out even as easy as it can be online for different sources of information, news, viewpoints, whatever - for some can be difficult. Resulting in what I call, or heard somewhere called 'an information bubble'). If I lived comfortably in an information bubble, I wouldn't be on this forum, but instead with about 20 tabs open to some sort of stock screener at one of the .com's trying to find the next Top Analyst 'Buy'. Then I was told about this website, zerohedge, the list goes on, many of which originated from here.

Eyes. Opened.

@ KMS - I have a family member who really prides himself on giving me financial advice. He believes I have a much higher risk tolerance (due to being 'new in the game' and 'not having much to lose', relatively speaking). My attitude has changed recently, so it makes it tougher to tell him I'm shifting how I think about the entire currency scheme and 'the Market game' in general. This risk tolerance from him is tinted with the things he has said out loud like "I wish I was making decisions like this when I was your age" sort of thing. It clouds his perception about MY tolerance for risk, and my thoughts on what wealth preservation is, and will be in 10 years.

@ KMS - When I tell him I bought a few thousand dollars in silver (a few weeks ago) and selling off a fairly negligible amount of under-performing stock to do so, he raised an eyebrow at me and wondered why I was doing such a thing. He just didn't get it. 3 days after that catch-up conversation is TODAY on the stock market. I felt like I should call him. I definitely do not work on the 'I told you so' in the short term, or long term, so I'll wait a week or two and see what comes of this recent market activity. The "prep"-talk comes when the family hits the wall (mentality during Feb-Mar '09, Dow bottom-out sort of thing) and once again question TPTB. It'll come with time, but hopefully never too late. Thanks for sharing the OP, by the way.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:12 AM   #16
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I am all done with trying to "wake people up". For years I have advised folks to stock up on food and such, only to get either the stink-eye, or the deer in the headlights look. Now, I just keep my mouth shut because I do not want to have a hundred hungry idiots on my doorstep when the time comes.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:17 PM   #17
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i was amused at the number of people who forwarded this Dilbert cartoon to me -

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...-prepared.html

( just googled to find a copy, i dont follow gun forums )

so the people i was drip feeding, did 'get it' they just choose to go with the flow for now.
Its not unreasonable to believe that our efforts do make a difference, in that awareness is increased, so the trigger to get them prepping operates at a lower threshold.

Dont give up on those you care about. Tell em straight that you are not able to feed em if tshtf and not to put you in the position of reminding them of the conversation .....

I also point out how most will hand over money every year for property insurance, when the realistic liklihood of claiming is close to zero for the majority.
Its a fear based trade and we all seem to go along with it, yet to stock on an extra 3 months food is a ONCE ONLY up front investment, that is also a hedge against inflation, for a possibly lesser risk than a property fire but with far worse consequences.

Its a real 'no brainer' to me.
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ancona View Post:
I am all done with trying to "wake people up". For years I have advised folks to stock up on food and such, only to get either the stink-eye, or the deer in the headlights look. Now, I just keep my mouth shut because I do not want to have a hundred hungry idiots on my doorstep when the time comes.
Well.. i pretty much only talk to people I care about regarding gold/silver nowadays. The doubters can continue being wrong.
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