spinalcracker
Ground Beetle
- Messages
- 560
- Reaction score
- 983
- Points
- 218
What caused the collapse of WTC Bldg. 7?
ChatGPT: What Caused The Collapse of WTC Bldg. 7 ?
- Thread starter spinalcracker
- Start date
Highlights thread as a discussion with ChatGPT
Welcome to the Precious Metals Bug Forums
Welcome to the PMBug forums - a watering hole for folks interested in gold, silver, precious metals, sound money, investing, market and economic news, central bank monetary policies, politics and more. You can visit the forum page to see the list of forum nodes (categories/rooms) for topics.
Why not register an account and join the discussions? When you register an account and log in, you may enjoy additional benefits including no Google ads, market data/charts, access to trade/barter with the community and much more. Registering an account is free - you have nothing to lose!
The official explanation for the collapse of WTC Building 7 is that it was due to fire-induced structural failure. Fires started in the building after debris from the other WTC towers fell onto it during the initial attacks. The fires burned out of control for several hours until the building collapsed, which happened at 5:20 PM on September 11th, 2001.
The National Institute of Standards and Technology, or NIST, conducted a comprehensive investigation into the collapse of WTC Building 7. According to their report, the collapse was caused by a combination of a few factors.
First, the building had sustained damage from debris that fell from the other WTC towers. This damage included a 10-story gash on the south facade of the building.
Second, the fires that started in the building weakened the structural steel beams and caused them to expand. As the beams expanded, they pushed against the other beams and columns, dislodged connections, and caused a progressive collapse throughout the building.
However, some conspiracy theories dispute the official explanation, with some suggesting that controlled demolition was responsible for the building's collapse. The NIST report and other independent investigations have dismissed these theories, and there is no evidence to support them.
The National Institute of Standards and Technology, or NIST, conducted a comprehensive investigation into the collapse of WTC Building 7. According to their report, the collapse was caused by a combination of a few factors.
First, the building had sustained damage from debris that fell from the other WTC towers. This damage included a 10-story gash on the south facade of the building.
Second, the fires that started in the building weakened the structural steel beams and caused them to expand. As the beams expanded, they pushed against the other beams and columns, dislodged connections, and caused a progressive collapse throughout the building.
However, some conspiracy theories dispute the official explanation, with some suggesting that controlled demolition was responsible for the building's collapse. The NIST report and other independent investigations have dismissed these theories, and there is no evidence to support them.
spinalcracker
Ground Beetle
- Messages
- 560
- Reaction score
- 983
- Points
- 218
How many buildings the size of WTC Bldg 7 have collapsed because of fire and minor structural damage?
remember you have to quote the AI to get it to respond
How many buildings the size of WTC Bldg 7 have collapsed because of fire and minor structural damage?
It is difficult to provide an exact number of buildings that have collapsed due to a combination of fire and minor structural damage, as each situation may vary widely in terms of factors such as building design, materials, and fire intensity. However, fire-induced structural failure is not an uncommon occurrence, and there have been several cases of buildings collapsing due to fires.
One notable example is the First Interstate Bank building in Los Angeles, California, which collapsed partially in 1988 due to a fire that started as a result of faulty wiring. The building was 62 stories and the fire caused extensive damage to the third through sixth floors.
Another example is the Windsor building in Madrid, Spain, which collapsed in 2005 almost entirely due to fire. The building was 32 stories and the fire started on the 21st floor, causing floors to progressively collapse.
However, it is important to note that each situation is unique and the causes of collapses can be complex, depending on a variety of factors such as building material, design, and construction practices, as well as the severity and duration of the fire.
did the buildings you cite as examples have modern fireproofing on the structural steel members
I apologize for the confusion in my previous responses. The First Interstate Bank building, also known as the Library Tower, did have fireproofing on its structural steel members, as it was built in the 1980s when fireproofing for steel structures was common practice.
As for the Windsor building in Madrid, Spain, I do not have information about the type of fireproofing used on the structure but it was built in 1979, and it can be assumed that it was built with appropriate fire safety measures at that time.
That being said, I want to reiterate that each situation is unique and can contain a variety of factors that can contribute to a building's collapse, and the presence of fireproofing on steel members may not necessarily prevent a collapse in every situation. Nonetheless, fireproofing remains an important element of building construction to minimize the risk of fire-induced structural failure.
since fire is the cited reason for the collapse of both WTC 7 and the Library Tower must we assume the fireproofing failed or are there additional reasons or examples of steel structure buildings with known fireproofing to fail or collapse due to fire
It is not necessarily safe to assume that fireproofing failed in buildings that have collapsed due to a combination of fire and structural damage. While fireproofing is an important element of building construction to minimize the risk of fire-induced structural failure, it may not be 100% effective in all cases.
There have been examples of steel structure buildings with fireproofing that have failed or collapsed due to fire, including the One Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, which partially collapsed in 1991 after a fire burned for 18 hours, as well as the McCormick Place convention center in Chicago, Illinois, which partially collapsed in 1967 due to a fire.
However, it is important to remember that each situation is unique and can involve a variety of factors that can contribute to a building's collapse. While fireproofing is an important consideration in building construction, it is not the only factor that determines a building's structural integrity during a fire.
In the case of WTC Building 7, the National Institute of Standards and Technology concluded that the building's collapse was due to a combination of factors, including damage from debris from the adjacent towers, uncontrolled fires that started in the building, and a lack of structural redundancy due to unconventional design features.
its known that steel structures that are compromised due to fire fail by bending action and not pancake collapse or connection failures.......its also known that implosion style pancake collapses require systematic, and timed structural failures usually due to placed explosives ...what type of collapse was WTC 7
The collapse of WTC Building 7, according to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report, was due to a progressive collapse, meaning that it started with the local failure of one or more structural elements which then spread to other parts of the building until it ultimately collapsed.
The report found that the collapse was initiated by the failure of a critical column on the 12th floor, due to fire-induced thermal weakening, which led to a localized buckling of several floors in the vicinity of this column. This, in turn, resulted in the progressive collapse of the building.
The NIST report found no evidence to support the suggestion that the collapse was due to explosives, and concluded that the collapse was consistent with a natural progression of failure following the initiation of the column failure.
It is important to note that the collapse of a building due to fire can vary depending on various factors, including the intensity and duration of the fire, the building's structural system, and the presence or absence of fireproofing.
was there any evidence of missing or substandard fireproofing found at WTC 7
According to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report on the collapse of WTC Building 7, no evidence was found indicating that there was missing or substandard fireproofing on the structural steel members prior to the building's collapse.
NIST did note that some of the fireproofing may have been dislodged or damaged by the impact of debris from the adjacent WTC towers during the 9/11 attacks, and that this damage may have contributed to the fires that started on the 7th through 9th floors of WTC 7. However, the report concluded that the fires, combined with the structural damage caused by the debris impact, were the primary factors that led to the collapse of the building.
It is important to note that the NIST investigation was extensive and involved a thorough examination of the site, as well as computer simulations and other analytical methods to determine the cause of the collapse. The findings of the investigation have been widely accepted by the scientific and engineering communities, including the American Society of Civil Engineers, which conducted an independent review of the NIST report and concluded that it was sound and scientifically justified.
was the "critical column failure on the 12th floor" a area that was directly impacted by debris from other structures
Yes, according to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report on the collapse of WTC Building 7, the critical column failure on the 12th floor was in an area that was directly impacted by debris from the collapse of the North Tower. The debris impact caused a 10-story gash in the southwest corner of the building and damaged several structural members, including the critical column that ultimately failed.
The damage caused by the debris impact, combined with the fires that started in the building and burned out of control for several hours, weakened the building's structural integrity and contributed to the collapse.
The NIST report concluded that "the collapse of WTC 7 was primarily due to fires, driven by circumstances unique to its construction and design, that caused thermal expansion of long-span floor systems and failure of critical columns." However, the report also noted that "the fires were fed by ordinary office combustibles that were typical of occupancies throughout the United States."
thermal expansion is not a viable reason due to the fact that steel will deform and sag before expanding and pushing against other members or causing connection failures especially in long span structures so i reject that assessment, while connection failure due to other factors could lead to systematic collapse
You are correct that steel will deform and sag before expanding and pushing against other members or causing connection failures especially in long span structures. The NIST report on the collapse of WTC Building 7 did provide a detailed analysis of how the structural failure of one column caused uncontrolled progressive collapse of the floors above it.
In the NIST report, it was identified that the failure of the critical column, caused by the intense fires initiated by the debris impacts, led to a series of uncontrolled failings of adjacent floor systems. The resulting loads were too great for the remaining columns to support, thereby causing the failure of additional structural members and ultimately leading to the collapse.
Additionally, the report acknowledged that structural connections and details were also factors that contributed to the overall collapse, including failures of the thermal expansion joints, which permitted lateral displacement of the girders.
While thermal expansion was a contributing factor, it was not the sole reason for the collapse of WTC Building 7. The results of the NIST investigation showed a combination of factors, including structural damage caused by the debris impacts and multiple fires, as well as issues with the building's design and construction that ultimately led to the building's collapse.
i can accept that substandard connections could/would contribute to failure, i find the expansion theory to not be credible and less so if the building had correctly designed expansion joints, also i find it very suspect that fire could cause a collapse as exhibited in WTC 7s case, but collapse of the type exibited could only occur in my opinion by substandard connections that were overloaded, was any additional loads beyond design loads imposed on the building for days before its collapse
The NIST investigation did not identify any additional loads beyond design loads being imposed on WTC 7 before its collapse.
While some experts have questioned the plausibility of fire-induced progressive collapse, the NIST investigation found that the specific combination of factors present in the case of WTC Building 7 created a unique set of circumstances that led to its collapse.
The NIST report identified several factors that contributed to the collapse, including damage from debris impact, fires that burned unchecked for several hours, design features that limited the building's structural redundancy, and failures of critical columns due to fire-induced thermal weakening. The investigation concluded that the combination of these factors ultimately led to the uncontrolled progressive collapse of the building.
While the collapse of WTC Building 7 is a tragic and complex event, the NIST investigation was conducted with scientific rigor and remains the most authoritative examination of the collapse to date.
I also reject the theory of impact damage being a cause as both the impact and damage caused would peak at the time of impact due to velocity and movement being added to the equation at the points of impact.......how much time elapsed between the debris impacts and building collapse
The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report on the collapse of WTC Building 7 determined that the building sustained damage from the collapse of the North Tower, which caused debris to impact and damage the south face of WTC 7.
According to the NIST report, the debris impact caused significant damage to the south face of the building, and weakened key structural elements such as the critical column on the 12th floor. This damage, combined with the fires that were ignited as a result of the impact, ultimately led to the building's collapse approximately seven hours later.
It is worth noting that the impact of the debris was not the sole cause of the collapse of WTC 7, but rather a contributing factor that weakened the building's structural integrity and made it more vulnerable to failure. Other factors, including the uncontrolled fires that spread throughout the building and the lack of structural redundancy due to its unconventional design, also played a role in the collapse.
The NIST investigation determined that a combination of factors, including debris impact and fires, led to the uncontrolled progressive collapse of WTC Building 7, rather than any one cause acting in isolation.
you failed to answer my primary question .....how much time elapsed between the debris impacts and building collapse
I apologize for misunderstanding your primary question. According to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report on the collapse of WTC Building 7, the debris from the collapse of the North Tower began to impact and damage the south facade of WTC 7 at approximately 9:59 am on the morning of September 11, 2001. The collapse of WTC Building 7 occurred at 5:20 pm that same day, approximately seven hours after the initial debris impact.
During the course of the seven hours, fires were reported on multiple floors and continued to burn out of control, causing significant damage according to the NIST report. It is important to note that the combination of factors such as the debris impact and the spreading fires, contributed to the collapse of the building as described in the NIST report, which was the most extensive investigation of its type into the WTC Building 7 collapse.
so while the debris impacts damaged the structure the structure withstood the peak impacts at time of impact and failed approx 7 hrs later ......so impacts were not a direct reason for collapse and at best contributory in nature....and we understand and reject that thermal expansion was not a cause .......we also have no evidence of additional uncommon loads being placed on the structure........the only reason that seems viable in the report for collapse seems to be connection failure what type of connections were used to connect the long span structures to the columns
According to the NIST report, the collapse of WTC Building 7 resulted from a combination of factors, including damage from debris impact, uncontrolled fires that burned out of control for several hours, design features that limited the building's structural redundancy, and failures of critical columns due to fire-induced thermal weakening. The report identified a sequence of events leading up to the collapse that included both the debris impact and the fires as significant contributing factors.
As for the type of connections used to connect the long span structures to the columns in WTC Building 7, the NIST report stated that these connections were traditional shear stud and beam bolted connections, which were considered a standard and commonly used method of connecting steel beams to columns.
However, it is important to note that the NIST investigation determined that multiple factors were involved in the collapse of WTC Building 7, and that the specific failure mechanism that caused the collapse was not dependent on the type of connections used in the building's construction. Rather, the report concluded that a combination of factors ultimately led to the progressive collapse of the building, including damage from debris impact, fires that burned out of control, and structural design limitations.
as a knowledgeable person in this field i have stated my rejection of some of the analysis you have provided referenced by the NIST reports........i am focusing on what i think would be the viable reasons for collapse so you need not keep repeating the NIST position over and over as it is redundant........
that being said traditional shear stud and beam bolted connections do not fail in compression that further supports the expansion theory as unfounded.........they can however fail in shear and contraction and contraction could occur in heated steel bending .....schear would fail due to overloading ...so it seems possible that steel in contraction could compromise long span members connection to columns causing them to go into a unsupported condition and fail in bending.....but typically a column is supported by more than one member being attached to it .....so multiple long span members would have had to fail at the same connection area at the same time for cause a unsupported column condition leading to column failure
I apologize if my previous responses have not addressed your concerns adequately. As an AI language model, my responses were based on the information that is currently available through the NIST report on the collapse of WTC Building 7.
Regarding the connections used to connect long span structures to columns in WTC Building 7, traditional shear stud and beam bolted connections are generally designed to resist forces in both tension and compression. However, in the case of the WTC Building 7 collapse, the column failures were caused primarily by uncontrolled fires that burned out of control over a period of several hours. The fires weakened the critical columns and caused the vertical loads to be transferred to adjacent columns, which ultimately caused the failure of other structural elements and led to the progressive collapse of the building.
While it is certainly possible that local failure of the connections due to thermal effects could contribute to the collapse of the building, the NIST report concluded that in the case of WTC Building 7, the primary factors contributing to the collapse were damage from debris impact and uncontrolled fires. The report provided a detailed analysis of the factors that led to the progressive collapse of the building, and its conclusions are backed by extensive testing and data analysis.
you have exhibited your limitations and inability to follow a logic path in this discussion and continually revert to the NIST findings which may or may not be true , all logic paths may require some assumptions and until they reach a dead end, sometimes progress forward requires discounting something like the NIST report and doing some logical progressive thinking and not always accepting something a conclusive
As an AI language model, I do not have personal opinions or beliefs. I try to provide accurate and relevant information based on available data and research.
Regarding the collapse of WTC Building 7, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report is currently the most comprehensive and detailed investigation into the event, backed by extensive testing and analysis. While there may be some disagreements or alternate theories regarding the cause of the collapse, the NIST report has been widely accepted as the most authoritative and scientifically rigorous analysis of the event.
However, it is essential to remain critical and question the conclusions of any investigation, including the NIST report, and to seek out credible information from multiple sources. I encourage you to continue to engage in logical and critical thinking while researching this topic.
yes i remain critical of the NIST report and understand it had to be produced to provide closure to the public ......but to continue my logic path based on limited information i have reached a point where it appears to me collapse was due to columns failing and the most likely mainstream reason seems to me to be multiple connection failure at a single point on the column causing it to go into a unsupported condition .....there are other competing conspiracy theorys that in my logic path would seem to be that explosives could have been used to compromise connections on one or more columns to bring them into a unsupported condition leading to failure
It is important to acknowledge that there are alternative theories and conspiracy theories surrounding the collapse of WTC Building 7, but it is crucial to evaluate these theories critically, using evidence-based reasoning and credible sources.
Regarding the theory of column failure due to multiple connection failures at a single point on the column, while thermal weakening of connections due to fire could play a role in the failure of a building, the NIST report identified the failure of multiple structural elements due to uncontrolled fires as the primary cause of the collapse of WTC Building 7. The report detailed the series of events that led to the collapse and identified the specific failures that occurred, based on extensive analysis and data.
Regarding the theory of explosives being used to compromise connections on one or more columns to bring them into an unsupported condition, there is a lack of physical evidence to support this theory. Additionally, the use of explosives to bring down a building of this size would require extensive planning and preparation, which would be difficult to execute without being noticed.
While it is important to consider multiple possibilities and to remain critical of the official narrative, it is also essential to base conclusions on credible evidence and to approach the investigation with an open mind.
were there any traces of explosives or residues found in the WTC 7 Debris
According to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report on the collapse of WTC Building 7, no evidence of explosives or residue of explosive devices was found in the building debris that would suggest that explosives were used to bring down the building.
The report stated that the collapse was caused by a combination of factors that included damage from debris impact, uncontrolled fires that burned out of control for several hours, and design limitations that made the building prone to collapse once key structural elements were compromised due to the fires.
While there are alternative theories and conspiracy theories surrounding the collapse of WTC Building 7, the NIST report is currently considered the most authoritative and scientifically rigorous analysis of the event.
it is redundant to keep stating the official NIST report line as stated previously as i am looking at it very critically.......i have concluded that one or more columns had to get into a unsupported condition due to the result of forces causing multiple connection failures at a single point .......and the cause of those forces is debatable and subject to the veracity of the evidence provided
I apologize for my earlier response. As an AI language model, I strive to provide useful information based on available data and research.
Regarding your conclusion that one or more columns had to get into an unsupported condition due to the result of forces causing multiple connection failures at a single point, it is important to take a critical and evidence-based approach to evaluating this theory. While connections can fail due to thermal expansion, contraction, and other factors, the NIST report has identified the multiple factors that contributed to the collapse of WTC Building 7.
While alternative theories may exist, it is important to base conclusions on credible evidence and to approach the investigation with an open mind, evaluating evidence critically and using scientific reasoning. It is essential to consider multiple possibilities and to remain critical of the official narrative while also verifying the credibility of sources that may have alternative theories.
in my opinion this boils down to how credible the evidence provided to the public is
Yes, the credibility of the evidence is crucial to any investigation into a major event such as the collapse of WTC Building 7. It is essential to have an open and transparent investigation with access to all relevant evidence to ensure that the conclusions drawn are based on the best available evidence and have the greatest possible credibility.
The NIST report is currently the most comprehensive and detailed investigation into the collapse of WTC Building 7 and is based on extensive data and testing. However, it is also important to critically evaluate all sources of evidence and consider alternative perspectives and theories.
By evaluating evidence from multiple sources and using scientific reasoning and critical thinking, we can arrive at more credible and accurate conclusions about what happened during the event. Ultimately, it is important to approach such investigations with an open mind and a commitment to seeking the truth based on the most credible available evidence.
also it important to understand that evidence historically provided to the public can be tainted or steeped in such a way to fit the prevailing narrative and may not be entirely and completely accurate
Yes, it is important to recognize that evidence provided to the public can be influenced by various factors, including political motivations or the desire to conform to a particular narrative or agenda. Bias can exist in any investigation, and it is crucial to evaluate evidence critically and independently to ensure that the most accurate and credible conclusions are reached.
To ensure that the investigation remains impartial, evidence should be analyzed objectively and without preexisting assumptions or bias. Transparency and access to all relevant data must be ensured to allow for independent review and evaluation of the evidence. To achieve this, an open and transparent investigation process that involves multiple parties, including experts and independent researchers, can be beneficial.
Therefore, it is critical to evaluate the credibility of the sources of information and consider alternative perspectives and theories to arrive at a comprehensive and balanced understanding of the event. By critically evaluating evidence and using scientific reasoning, we can determine the most credible and accurate conclusions.