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Old 11-24-2011, 03:43 PM   #1
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bullion vault

looking into some online ways to invest in pms without the negatives associated w the gld or slv of the world. anyone ever use bullion vault? i learned about it through a podcast w chris martenson. trying to find easier way to own silver. the sprott physical trust trades at a huge premium right now so not appealing. any thoughts would be appreciated.

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Old 11-24-2011, 05:57 PM   #2
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I would vote for GoldMoney as the 2nd best to keeping it somewhere close at hand.

BullionVault 3rd, because it's a bit more involved (internal market orders - fun but probably more than most people care about) and you can't withdraw physical gold in denominations smaller than 400oz bars, if you suddenly decided it was preferable to liquidating as currency. Only 'big players' would be able to make it through the exit, smaller ones would presumably have to accept cash (albeit, in one of several choices of currency).

GoldMoney will send you metal, however small the amount, if you pay the delivery fees (not that I'm suggesting it's cheap - although it may be, I haven't looked in a while).

GoldMoney was also honesty-tested when the Dutch government forced accounts in that country to be closed out. GM sent *metal* to the account holders. I take that as a good sign more than anything else.

http://www.sovereignman.com/expat/gold-confiscation/

GM storage and trading fees are a little higher than BV in general but I still prefer it for a bunch of small (but cumulative) reasons.

I am not terribly keen on trusts etc. at the moment - not because they are suspect (especially Sprott's - which is one of the best) - but because the brokers/middlemen are not all trustworthy and I suspect some are going to implode along with their intermingled, loaned-for-shorting, non-segregated (etc. insert 'accident' of choice here) customer holdings.
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Old 11-24-2011, 09:59 PM   #3
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thanks for the input. the thin i didnt like about goldmomey was they take their fees out of your gold. i dont kow if the bullion vault does the same, i didnt get that impression from reading the website. personally i want to pay my bills in dollars and save my gold. its great for the owners of goldmoney but i dont want my gold constantly decreaing over time. as gold rises the implied fees will have been much more significant. its kinda like paying mgmt of a underalued company in stock. the greater the undervaluation to intrinsic value the more you are paying them.
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Old 11-25-2011, 05:03 AM   #4
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A very good point - one I forgot to mention. GM does take fees in goldgrams etc. currently it amounts to a bit more than BV and IIRC it gets worse if you use several vaults at once.

Again this can be a good or bad thing. It's good that they value the metal enough to take their fees in it - they believe in what they are doing. It's not so good that the fees will effecively rise as the metal does (and for smaller investors in silver this might cap their holdings after a while due to fees eroding the stack).

BV takes its storage fees in currency, and from small buy/sell transaction fees. There is also a buy/sell spread depending on the market at the time. If you trade in some volume the fees drop into lower pricing brackets for the remainder of the year. I think the brackets were 0.8% per trade (so thats 1.6% to sell and buy back, before spread) until you trade $30,000, then drops to 0.4%, 0.2% etc... something like that. It's very accommodating for those who like to trade frequently.

In general I'd recommend GM for more longterm international stacking. BV for a more active arrangement - trading in the physical metal without intermediates.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:09 AM   #5
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I would simply buy the largest, heaviest gun safe I could and put it in the basement.
Funny, in a morbid sort of way - there have been some attempts to steal these around here, perhaps 2-3 in the 3 city area in the last couple of years. None were successful. In one case, one of the perps was found dead under a safe they'd managed to tip over. In another, a severed hand was found under a toppled safe.

No one has managed to get into one yet, that I've heard - they try to take them home for that, but fail at step one.

Evidently, the criminal mind doesn't plan as well (and isn't as well-equipped) as the guys who deliver and install these things. Many are reasonably fire proof to boot, and of course, can hold guns, too.
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Old 11-25-2011, 12:50 PM   #6
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Indeed - if you have the means (basement, security, an immovable box - or anything approximating them) then it is by far the best way.
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Old 11-25-2011, 04:07 PM   #7
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will do some more research on GM and BV and report back. the problem with a large amount at home is if someome has a gun to your head the size of the safe doesnt really matter at that pt.

seems like all methods have their pros and cons. also having physical all in one place make you very immobile. i like to travel, staying in one place isnt an option for me.

probably a combination of all is the best diversification.

anyone know how tight the buy sell spreads are on bv when you make the trades?
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Old 11-25-2011, 05:40 PM   #8
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Well, if it gets to the point of someone having a gun to my head, a bunch of other failures in my security have happened already. And of course, if they shoot me, they ain't gettin in anyway. So little of that is rational (but that's no protection against someone not-rational).

And of course, like the famous movie line - their aim might not be so poor as to aim at you, but rather someone else you'd not willingly sacrifice.

But yeah, more than one place seems wise, fer sure. And of course, no bragging...

Maybe I'm kind of insecure, but if I didn't have a place of my own and some security, I'd get that squared before I bothered with stacking at all, but that's me. After all, what would you buy with the gold when times get "hard"? Why wait?

But easier for me to say, since I've already cut the cord with that whole wage-slave-live-in-apt way of life, long since. My guess is that it's easier to do when everyone else isn't trying to at the same time...it's hard enough that all too many justify not doing it, picking up pennies in front of a steamroller till the end. Hope you don't slip!

The other stuff seems suspiciously like paper to me, personally. It's just a promise to give your gold back from some other entity, on paper, right?
Same as GLD then, in most important regards, legally? So if the system fails, so does that? How would they ship it to you even if they wanted to, if transport is going down along with the rest?
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Old 11-25-2011, 05:57 PM   #9
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even if you are settled down, you never plan to take a vacation. at some pt you will not be at home. 10 armed men with assualt rifles are gonna be hard to stop. yes that happens in other countries.

guess every metod has its issues. i will report any new info on GM and BV. found this comparision:

http://www.goldinmind.com/how-to-buy...ey-review.html
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:41 PM   #10
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i have searched the message boards on the net to gather some scuttlebut. sounds like both are legit places. sounds like tis BV has a better platform especially if you are an actice trader. i dont plane to trade a ton but the concern i saw w GM was the restrictions on the trading. if i ea it correctly you have to place the orders before 930 and 630 am for gold and silver to confirm a price and also they can only confirm a price for 2000 gold grams and 2000 oz of silver. while that a decent amount i thought those max trades for a confirmed price seemed very low. that ike 60k for each metal at current prices roughly. seemed odd for a modern automated system to have such a low threshold. they both also openly say they can adjust the terms at any moment so in times of stress it may be even more restrictive. BV adveritises you can trade 24/7/365. you cannot do this on gm. so tis seems like a big draw for bv.

appears nothing is perfect but i want to avoid the trap of becoming paralized and not doing any of them just because they are not perfect.

there are some good threads on the kitco forums discussing the options. also seems like GM is backed by james turk and sprott which people like becuase they seem ike stand up guys.
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Old 11-26-2011, 05:51 PM   #11
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Any good quality safe is designed to be bolted to the floor. A heavy, fireproof safe bolted to the concrete floor in your basement is about as good as you can do (for those who have basements).

I can't speak from experience, but from looking at safes I think that http://www.brownsafe.com/ and http://www.graffundersafes.com/ are the best out there. Just from an engineer with an internet connection.

BTW, for the Brown safes, they do a lot of custom/designer type of work, but they do make plain-jane models that don't have all the exotic wood trim and such. Clearly one of their customers reads PMbug.com (see pics 28 & 29) http://www.brownsafe.com/gallery/Gem...m_Gallery.html
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Old 11-26-2011, 06:58 PM   #12
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@escobar - maybe GM put the limit in place to ensure they could fulfill the orders with available physical metal from their customers / suppliers. I would be suspicious it they allowed unlimited order sizes and claimed they could deliver physical on demand.

@ddmb - I copied your post to a new thread dedicated to the topic of safes. I think it's deserving of it's own thread and hope to keep this thread on topic.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:49 AM   #13
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yeqh i hear you but how are places like tulving able to offer confirmed sales for any amount? if they can do it why cant gm do it?

curious about people thoughts on the sprott physical trusts? the silver one trades at a 16% premium now so that seems out of the question but te gold one is only at 4% and if u catch it on a good day could be close to 1%. curious if peopke think this is as good as gm or bv? sure is a lot simpler. in some ways it seems safer to me. y can still take delivery if you want.

i wish tha sprott would raise a ton more for the silver trust but he seems to be saying he doesnt want to damage the premium on the silver trust. doesnt make sense to me. it only trades at a premm becuase here is so much demand. seems like an easy business decision.
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Old 11-27-2011, 08:07 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by escobar View Post:
yeqh i hear you but how are places like tulving able to offer confirmed sales for any amount? if they can do it why cant gm do it?
Different business model. Tulving buys a ton of metal which they store in their warehouse/vault and sell to the public. 100% of their inventory is dedicated to public sale. GM/BV buy metal and store in their vaults and sell to the public, but most of it remains in their vaults after sale. Only a percentage of the metal in their vaults is available for sale.

Originally Posted by escobar View Post:
curious about people thoughts on the sprott physical trusts? ... i wish tha sprott would raise a ton more for the silver trust but he seems to be saying he doesnt want to damage the premium on the silver trust. doesnt make sense to me. ...
My interpretation of Sprott's comments in the KWN interview is that he will buy more silver depending upon new investment into the trust. Ie. if the premium rises, he will buy silver.
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:39 AM   #15
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I need to call GM Monday to ask some questions. The thing I still dont understand is who is buying and selling the gold? in BV it is mostly between the clients and sometimes the bots from the company step in. But with GM are they constantly buying and selling from you? What happens if a lot of people are selling do they have the balance sheet to buy?

Found this interesting article talking about the sprott gold trust. assume the same issues apply to the silver one as well. Basically the tax effects of some of the trading vehicles can be bad sometimes.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1915...d-deal-to-boot
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Old 11-27-2011, 05:30 PM   #16
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I noticed this BullionVault mentioned that there may be a 20% VAT tax on any silver sales or withdraw. Is this the case only for UK users? does this apply to GoldMoney as well. This seems punitive to the pt of making it no economical to use.

thanks any feedback.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:14 AM   #17
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BV/GM do not themselves charge tax on withdrawals - the VAT on silver is a UK taxpayer thing and affects all forms of silver. It does not affect non-UK customers.
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Old 11-28-2011, 02:17 PM   #18
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RE: VAT sales tax

Nice thread, great site - just to clarify, VAT sales tax does NOT apply to any BV silver buyers unless they take possession. Doesn't matter where you're from or where you're living. VAT is a sales tax in the European Union, otherwise charged on silver because it's deemed to be an industrial metal, not monetary (gold's been VAT-exempt since 1999). BV users avoid it under UK agreement between the wholesale bullion market and the tax man
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Old 11-28-2011, 02:22 PM   #19
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Thanks BV. Appreciate the clarification and welcome to the forum.
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Old 11-28-2011, 02:51 PM   #20
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I started using Bullionvault as things got messy in '08.

Just a small amount to begin with, then committed the entire pot over the next couple of years.
I have sold gold and transferred the cash back to the originating account and it all works fine.

One of the factors that attracted me to BV, was the fact that the gold held on our behalf, arrived at the vault as verified 99.999 % fine gold and as long as it remains in the vault it can be sold on the same basis.
If the gold is removed from the registered bullion dealer circuit, then it will need to be assayed before it can be readmitted.

So reassuring that it is gold but expensive to take delivery then try and sell.

I belatedly sold my London based Gold when I noticed that almost all BV customers were storing theirs in Zurich, where mine is now held but retain a 50kg silver deposit in London purely for entertainment ..........

Other attractions to storing / stacking this way are -

As long as the internet is functioning there is a larger potential number of buyers / sellers should things get difficult, than wondering who might buy my 'chinese' krugs.

Being a non gun country and me being eligible for a bus pass, Im not really keen to learn unarmed combat, so the question of defending the shiny is kept simpler by it being in a vault a long way away.

Oh yeah, that interview of Paul Tustain by Chris Martenson did two things for me -

I think the guy is an honest broker.
He casually mentioned that he was getting a large number of inquiries from UK Bank Managers .........

Ok hes selling his product but hes not a bullshitter in my opinion.

The only negative Ive had with BV, is that I had to quickly transfer my linked account from HBOS in '08, when it looked like it might fold, to one that had already folded and had full UK Gov backing.
The process was a bit painful because the verification they required was impossible to get due to odd technicalities with web based bank statements.

Probably just me then

Last edited by rblong2us; 11-28-2011 at 02:55 PM.
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