Cresthaven Jet Crash
- Thread starter nickndfl
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Like Flight 93 when it crashed in Pennsylvania on September 11?
Viking
Yellow Jacket
A 20-year-old female.
DEI for you and I. Planes fall out of sky...
DEI for you and I. Planes fall out of sky...
Viking
Yellow Jacket
Since she was operating the radios, I'm guessing she was not the pilot flying nor captain in this situation.
We don't know who/what the pilot was.
But, as the co-pilot-slash-First Officer, she was supposed to be FULLY QUALIFIED to take the controls; to work problems independently, to take over should the Captain be disabled; and to assist or even override the captain should he suddenly make a gross error or go berserkers.
What she was capable of, was playing Perils-Of-Pauline on the radio. HOW many times have we, all of us, heard or made a comment about how CALM a crew or critical person was, in communication, as things unfold? Cops with a gut shot, call in that OFFICER DOWN, steady voice, and then collapse. I don't remember Sullenberger's radio transmissions as he was landing on the Hudson - that itself is telling. Ho hum, just another day...hey, we could use a few rescue craft out here, can you relay to Port Authority?
This to me, smells like that dingbat "aviator" who launched off the Abe Lincoln and straight into the ocean. BOTH seem to be DEI - in Hultgreen's case it was; she'd come close to failing qualification tests and junior trainers recommended she be removed from the flight program. Didn't happen.
Here's this girl posing in front of what I guess was her plane at the time, in hot pants.
And now is what comes of it.
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There doesn't appear to be a horizontal stabilizer on the plane before impact. They flew right through the center of a growing thunderstorm just before the uncontrolled descent started. On the radio you can hear her saying they are experiencing +/- 6-700 feet variation in altitude caused by turbulence, along with potential icing.
600 feet +/- in altitude is a lot of turbulance
The forces involved probably broke the horizontal stabilizer off, at which point it wouldn't have mattered who was at the controls. Everyone on the plane would have simply been along for the ride, at that point.
I'd like to know why they turned right and flew through the center of a thunderstorm. I'd think that they should have been able to see a towering Cumulonimbus cloud.
600 feet +/- in altitude is a lot of turbulance
The forces involved probably broke the horizontal stabilizer off, at which point it wouldn't have mattered who was at the controls. Everyone on the plane would have simply been along for the ride, at that point.
I'd like to know why they turned right and flew through the center of a thunderstorm. I'd think that they should have been able to see a towering Cumulonimbus cloud.
My friend lives in the evacuated trailer park. He or his wife shot it walking over to Military Trail.
No other info at this time. I am in Boston right now on a flight delay back to Fort Lauderdale.
No other info at this time. I am in Boston right now on a flight delay back to Fort Lauderdale.
She did announce (panicked scream) that they were in an overspeed condition. That is where engineering limits are exceeded, and it becomes possible, probable even, that the wings and other appendages are torn off the airframe.
I can hear readers ask: Wouldn't I be panicked? I don't know. I would never have tried to be a commercial pilot - I don't even like riding on those things, any airplane. Never did. But how many times have we heard seasoned professionals, working the radio, keeping cool as things are coming all apart. Announcing to ATC that they can't make even the closest airstrip, they're going down in a cornfield. Or in water.
I don't expect (what was essentially) a teenage girl to keep cool. But I don't expect her to be competent to fly such a craft as a commercial pilot, either. Which by appearances she was not.
Now I'm reading that the captain was a fifty-year-old. He should have known better than to fly such a plane through a storm...or, maybe he was fired from an airline, maybe for alcoholism or poor judgement...and maybe he was dismissive of storms because of how large commercial airliners handle cold and icy conditions, far better?
This is the Peter Principle on display. Both of them rose to their level of incompetence; and then pulled themselves out of the gene pool.
Viking
Yellow Jacket
Could have been an imbedded thunder storm (ie. they were in the clouds).
That could be why, but I heard that they had a weather radar on board. So it seems like they should have been able to see it that way.
.....and they had manuvered to fly around other storms in the area. If you look at the flight path, it's like they were threading a needle between storms, but took a right turn directly through the center of a smaller developing storm.
Perhaps we'll never know for sure exactly.
I mentioned what I did because I've been in a plane around 35,000' flying between and around big storms. You could see the thunderheads towering above all the lower clouds. Thunderheads tower up to 50-60,000 feet. Far above where they were flying. They look absolutely huge.
....but if they were inside those lower clouds, then visually seeing the storms prolly wasn't possible.
Here's AI take onnit;
AI Overview
In aviation accidents fitting this specific scenario—including the tragic Learjet 60 crash in South Florida—the most common cause of a vertical, unrecoverable dive is a severe aerodynamic stall or structural failure (such as a tailplane stall or loss of the horizontal stabilizer) triggered by heavy ice accumulation, extreme updrafts, and subsequent loss of control.
Because Learjets feature highly swept, high-performance "stubby" wings, they have a low margin for error when exposed to severe convective weather. When flying through a rapidly expanding thunderstorm cell at high altitudes, several lethal elements combine to cause this specific type of crash:
1. High-Altitude Tailplane or Wing Stall
• Aerodynamic Degradation: Supercooled liquid water droplets within explosive thunderstorm updrafts can freeze instantly upon contact with an airframe. Even a tiny fraction of an inch of ice dramatically alters the airfoil shape. It destroys lift, rapidly increases drag, and can induce a sudden stall.
• Tailplane Stall: If ice accumulates on the horizontal stabilizer (the tail), it can cause the tail to lose lift. Because the tail acts as a counterweight pulling the nose up, a tailplane stall causes the aircraft to pitch down aggressively and uncontrollably, often at a near 90-degree angle.
2. Pilot Spatial Disorientation & Coffin Corner
• The "Coffin Corner": At altitudes like 35,000 feet, the margin between an aircraft's high-speed buffet (overspeed) and its low-speed aerodynamic stall (underspeed) narrows significantly.
• The Death Spiral: Severe turbulence can buffet the plane and suddenly disrupt airflow. If the aircraft stalls and rolls into a steep bank, pilots can quickly suffer from spatial disorientation in zero-visibility storm clouds. The nose drops, and the aircraft enters a high-speed, spiraling nosedive.
3. Overspeed and In-Flight Structural Breakup
• Loss of Control Surfaces: As the plane plunges vertically at full power or a high rate of descent, it rapidly enters an "overspeed condition".
• "Lawn Dart" Profile: Exceeding the maximum structural speed limitation (\(V_{NE}\)) while experiencing extreme turbulence puts massive, unintended aerodynamic forces on the airframe. Under these loads, the horizontal stabilizer or entire tail assembly can rip completely off the fuselage. Without a tail to control the pitch, the aircraft loses all aerodynamic recoverability and falls directly to the ground like a missile.
AI Overview
In aviation accidents fitting this specific scenario—including the tragic Learjet 60 crash in South Florida—the most common cause of a vertical, unrecoverable dive is a severe aerodynamic stall or structural failure (such as a tailplane stall or loss of the horizontal stabilizer) triggered by heavy ice accumulation, extreme updrafts, and subsequent loss of control.
Because Learjets feature highly swept, high-performance "stubby" wings, they have a low margin for error when exposed to severe convective weather. When flying through a rapidly expanding thunderstorm cell at high altitudes, several lethal elements combine to cause this specific type of crash:
1. High-Altitude Tailplane or Wing Stall
• Aerodynamic Degradation: Supercooled liquid water droplets within explosive thunderstorm updrafts can freeze instantly upon contact with an airframe. Even a tiny fraction of an inch of ice dramatically alters the airfoil shape. It destroys lift, rapidly increases drag, and can induce a sudden stall.
• Tailplane Stall: If ice accumulates on the horizontal stabilizer (the tail), it can cause the tail to lose lift. Because the tail acts as a counterweight pulling the nose up, a tailplane stall causes the aircraft to pitch down aggressively and uncontrollably, often at a near 90-degree angle.
2. Pilot Spatial Disorientation & Coffin Corner
• The "Coffin Corner": At altitudes like 35,000 feet, the margin between an aircraft's high-speed buffet (overspeed) and its low-speed aerodynamic stall (underspeed) narrows significantly.
• The Death Spiral: Severe turbulence can buffet the plane and suddenly disrupt airflow. If the aircraft stalls and rolls into a steep bank, pilots can quickly suffer from spatial disorientation in zero-visibility storm clouds. The nose drops, and the aircraft enters a high-speed, spiraling nosedive.
3. Overspeed and In-Flight Structural Breakup
• Loss of Control Surfaces: As the plane plunges vertically at full power or a high rate of descent, it rapidly enters an "overspeed condition".
• "Lawn Dart" Profile: Exceeding the maximum structural speed limitation (\(V_{NE}\)) while experiencing extreme turbulence puts massive, unintended aerodynamic forces on the airframe. Under these loads, the horizontal stabilizer or entire tail assembly can rip completely off the fuselage. Without a tail to control the pitch, the aircraft loses all aerodynamic recoverability and falls directly to the ground like a missile.
Viking
Yellow Jacket
Wings are there (freeze frame at 16:06). Stabilizers are a tough one (I see outline/shadow of them), I suspect they are there but don't appear to be clearly because of the resolution of the camera in capturing that high speed object.
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Viking
Yellow Jacket
Yeah, I saw that, too.
Jeff's snide remarks about those who point out the correlation between DEI and all the "something happened" crashes we're seeing...let's just say I don't appreciate it. Or rather I do, but negatively - and yes, Jeff, you're Woke. Give yourself a medal or something.
But we've learned a few things here. First, the horizontal elevators/stabilizers were probably ripped off, far up in the air. That explains why nothing could be done in the last minutes. Okay...and he points out the turbulence was extreme, and could in fact have caused the elevator structures to rip off, the sudden lift and dropping.
Not the pilots' fault, if it happened that way. Duly noted. (Probably, too, that's how they'll write the accident report, whether or not facts prove it conclusive...that enables the continued beatification of this noble saint of Grrl Powah...)
IF the storm was as fast-moving as portrayed...and I'm not a coastal weather expert...well, beyond all the Peter Principle stunts we see on display, everywhere, schitt does happen.
Given the damage and possibly lost data, here in this, we'll never know. We'd be more certain, if the pilot had more than a few years at the task. This is kinda why hot-doggers and fa-cups who land in accidents, in any line of work, are looked at a little harder than your Eagle Scout type employees, the ones who religiously follow rules and show common sense.
Yeah, that was always a tough one for me.
I saw where the the storm they flew through had grown from having a 20,000' top to one over 40,000' tall in the fifteen minutes prior to them entering it.
Well, that depends on the setting.
There's rules and there's rules. Rules about, say, wearing the approved lime-green Safety Vests...hellwifdat. Rules forbidding smoking in locomotive cabs. Think of that - a loco cab is one of the dirtiest industrial settings you can find, outside of a cesspool. We've got iron filings and gritty dirt from 25 years of heavy use...and you SOBs are gonna worry about TOBACCO USE? I don't even smoke, and I'm moar sympathetic to the smokers out there. If they're worried about our lungs...they can get in there with an industrial vac once in a while.
But there's rules about, say, speed in various conditions, like turnouts (switches) or using phones, or defeating alerter or deadman switches. Not so smart.
Most of the brainiacs who went to work with the "I got this!" attitude, usually wound up with a messy wreck of some sort. Even if they weren't hurt (most cases) tipping over, say, two auto racks with forty new cars inside, is a pretty spendy "incident."
It should be pointed out (so I'll do it) that she identified the buffeting forces as "moderate." I think it was Jeff, there, between tripping over Politically Correct canards, pointed out that those wind forces weren't moderate - they were extreme.
Again, duly noted. Now...WHY did the Aviator of the Year NOT TELL ATC that. They'd just RIDDEN THROUGH severe wind-shear forces.
Maybe because with a couple thousand hours, mostly in instructional settings...she couldn't identify severe from moderate/normal?
Where was her Captain/Pilot/Flight-Instructor while this was going on? Did HE tell HER to identify the forces, the sudden buffeting, as "moderate"? Did she just repeat it to ATC, because she didn't know?
Something is rotten, there in that flight deck.
Nope!
All rules must be followed to the T.
No exceptions given and no questions shall be asked. Period!
Well, that is as long as I get to make the rules. Lol
Jawohl, Herr Commandant!
