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benjamen

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With the recent nationally advertised shootings, I have been having numerous discussions with anti-firearm types. I would like to compile a thread of relavent links, statistics, ect. Feel free to contribute!

More people die from hammers than rifles in the U.S. yearly:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...-Hammers-and-Clubs-Each-Year-Than-With-Rifles

The U.K. has been a smashing success in gun control...
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/42677/Knifings-and-shootings-up-as-murder-rate-soars
14% increase in murders from 1998 to 2007
28% increase in murders with blades
57& increase in murders with hands/feet

http://pjmedia.com/blog/gun-control-fails-say-statistics-from-gun-control-advocates/?singlepage=true
The U.S. is 92nd in homicide rate among U.N. members despite being number one in firearm ownership by far.
Less violent crime in right to carry states
The higher the Brady grade of state, the higher the violent crime rate

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/12/listening_to_the_latest_media.html
Out of 206 countries, the U.S. is #103 in murder
Murder in the U.S. is at its lowest point since 1911
"...a more heavily armed population goes hand-in-hand with less murder, as an average. The statistics bear that out: the correlation coefficient is negative, -0.23, and it is statistically significant."

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/3...n=Feed:+dailyanarchist/blog+(Daily+Anarchist)
"The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29

The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33"
 
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posted your linkys on my wifes FB page (they are all blue dog liberal Obama supporters) heheheheheehee
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-worse-Britain-US.html
Australia violent crime rate: 4.1%
U.K. violent crime rate: 3.6%
U.S. violent crime rate: 2%

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324669104578203353922899758.html?mod=opinion_newsreel
1/3rd of U.S. schools already have armed guards
"One-third of the nation's elementary, middle and high schools reportedly already have armed security on campus. In 2000, President Clinton marked the one-year anniversary of Columbine by proposing a significant expansion of the government's existing "COPS in Schools" program. Now that the National Rifle Association's Mr. LaPierre has made a similar proposal, he is being ridiculed. Why?"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2012/12/25/gun-free-zone-john-lott/1791085/
"With just one exception, every public mass shooting in the USA since at least 1950 has taken place where citizens are banned from carrying guns. Despite strict gun regulations, Europe has had three of the worst six school shootings."

Mass shootings are pretty stable despite various law changes over the past 35 years:
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/165757356.html
It is also interesting to see which states have had the most incidents.
 
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http://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/bracken-dear-mr-security-agent/
Long, but great article on the subject on link between government overstep and gun control.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc....-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11
FBI data on how homicides broken down by weapon used and situation. Interesting that there is a huge uproar about "assault rifles", yet rifles of all types are only the 7th highest category.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime
FBI data on everything violent crime related including a nice graphic showing violent crime in the U.S. on a steady decline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
A bit sparse on total number of countries included, but it does highlight the huge rate of firearm related suicides in the U.S.
 
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I saw the Alex Jones vs. Piers Morgan interview, even though what Alex said needed to be said, IMO he should have had a real debate about it and not get hung up on the little stuff and acting immature. We will never get the other side to see our point of view with the radical antics of this guy. Mocking and name calling don't win a debate, even if the other side is wrong... ;)
 
Not a discussion link per se, but an interesting rifle with some computer enhancements that would make it so even a relative beginner could get long range hits offhand, which is the only way you'd ever want to shoot a 300 win mag or 338 lapua, believe me - those cripple on the shooter end of things. Especially if shot from the bench where you are leaning into it.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/17000-linux-powered-rifle-brings-auto-aim-to-the-real-world/

Anybody who buys one and has it shipped to me - I'll make some even better ammo for ya and ship it back after I have a little fun.:drool:
 
Connecticut already has a ban on assault weapons.
http://www.myrecordjournal.com/state/article_7585e9ce-48cf-11e2-a0c6-0019bb2963f4.html
"Connecticut is one of seven states with an assault weapons ban."

Currently, in Connecticut, assault weapons are already banned except for police, military, or those that already owned one prior to Oct 1, 1994.
http://www.chattanoogan.com/2012/12/22/240929/Connecticut-Already-Has-A-Ban-On.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon
"In Connecticut, an assault weapon is defined as "Any selective-fire firearm capable of fully automatic, semiautomatic or burst fire at the option of the user" (i.e. with fully automatic capability) plus other specific semi-automatic firearms plus other semi-automatic firearms with certain attributes."


:cheers:
 
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Well, yeah, full auto (mostly useless outside of a battle where you just want the other guy to duck while you run) has always been at best, difficult to obtain. Check the current price of a tommy gun - it's an investment! You can get one if you have the money, and a clean record and do a ton of paperwork to get a "tax stamp" from BATFE. And despite what some states are trying to do, yes, federal gun law takes priority (in both directions - tight or loose) over state laws, that's well settled case law.

As Bruce Schneieir points out in "lexical warfare" - the trouble is that anything that "looks scary" is now being called an assault weapon....even my carry revolver (Taurus ultralight Ti) is a semi-auto by the dictionary definition. And you could even stretch my bump-fire Carbon 15 to the point of calling it full auto (it is if you hold it "wrong").
 
@ DCFusor (Jan 9 comment)

Yeah, you & me re the .338 Lapua. I saw one at a gun show, right next to a Barrett .50, and the Lapua looked meaner...

A company in Montana makes one that has a muzzle brake, they claim "modest recoil" (whatever that would mean with such a beast)... Without something like that, just shooting that would dislocate my shoulder.

onlylongrange.com
 
Long, but informative article on assault weapons
http://the-american-catholic.com/2013/01/14/understanding-assault-weapons/

"Another way to think of this is: Although there are roughly the same number of rifles and handguns available in the US, handguns are used in homicides at a rate nearly 17 times that of rifles."

"A compilation of 38 sources indicated that AWs accounted for 2% of crime guns on average" (AW = assault weapon)

"The 5.56×45mm NATO round fired by the AR-15 packs a force of 1,300 foot-pounds of energy. The 7.62×39mm fired by the AK-47 is slightly more powerful at 1,500 foot-pounds. However, the .308 Winchester, a common hunting cartridge, is far more powerful than either one at 2,600 foot-pounds."

"The National Institute of Justice study on the AWB reported that only 3% of instances of gun violence involved the firing of more than ten shots"

"given that there are already, by government estimates, 20-30 million magazines holding more than ten rounds in current circulation, even if the manufacture of more were banned, there are so many already available that the ban would do little other than increase the cost."
 
yep, AFAIK military rifles were designed with an intent to inflict serious wounds preferably, rather than kill, because one wounded enemy takes three rifles out of the equation (one guy wounded, and two of his colleagues carrying him back/tending to him). Not to mention morale impacts - dead don't scream. Basically wounded soldier ties up more enemy resources than killed one.

As sick as it sounds.
 
Let's hope they just stick with mag capacity bans....because that's truly a joke, see this:

OK, that guy is ridiculously fast, faster than me. But this guy isn't even as fast as me and he's still not limited by mag capacity.



I guess the net result of lower mag capacity would be such that someone who didn't know how to quick change wouldn't be as effective. I don't really have a problem with that. I think you should have to be good at things to be awesome. It's not like it takes weeks of practice.
 
Bushi, your theory is correct - for WWII morals, and there it worked. But Vietnam showed us that in some societies, they just leave the wounded there screaming and keep coming. The world seems a bit less civilized these days. The cong knew this, and the AK is better at outright killing at short ranges (at long ranges, you miss - I've yet to see one shoot inside 2 moa).

But oh yes, both we and the Russians design our military bullets to tumble when hitting something, since the standard war agreements don't allow hollow points.
 
Man, they're serious. Here come the false flags - 5 (injuring or killing) shots at gunshows this weekend alone - after years of zero, and a kid with an assault rifle does murder - all on the same day, all in google news today.

Now, how likely is that? They're real serious about loaded weapons at gunshows, and if you bring one in, it's tie wrapped and checked for unloaded. Something is afoot here - I guess the fast and furious guys found another venue?



Sadly, due to weather, I couldn't make it out to the local gunshow this weekend. Bet I could have finally gotten some good prices on guns I'd like to move out from my footprint.
 
The best source I have found thus far:
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

"0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection."

"...survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year."

"83% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime"

"for every 12 aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders committed in the United States, approximately one person is sentenced to prison for committing such a crime"

"Of 1,662 murders committed in New York City during 2003-2005, more than 90% were committed by people with criminal records"

"the homicide rate in England and Wales has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban"

"Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect"

"survey of 14,285 state prison inmates found that among those inmates who carried a firearm during the offense for which they were sent to jail, 0.7% obtained the firearm at a gun show"

"In right-to-carry states, the violent crime rate is 24% lower than the rest of the U.S., the murder rate is 28% lower, and the robbery rate is 50% lower."

"Since the outset of the Florida right-to-carry law, the Florida murder rate has averaged 36% lower than it was before the law took effect"

"In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States, constituting 0.5% of 123,706 fatal accidents that year"
 
"The following letter was disseminated and signed by over 1,000 current and former Army Special Forces soldiers (Green Berets) in support of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms, specifically as a defensive measure against tyranny. The letter was compiled through the joint efforts of current and former Special Forces personnel over at www.ProfessionalSoldiers.com, and quietly disseminated for signatures among secure, vetted circles."

http://sofrep.com/16644/1000-green-berets-sign-letter-of-support-for-2nd-amendment/

This is a very well thought out and written letter!
:clap:
 
Interesting case law upheld 8-1 by the SCOTUS:
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.haynes.html

"Consider a law that requires registration of firearms: a convicted felon can not be convicted for failing to register a gun, because it is illegal under Federal law for a felon to possess a firearm; but a person who can legally own a gun, and fails to register it, can be punished. In short, the person at whom, one presumes, such a registration law is aimed, is the one who cannot be punished, and yet, the person at whom such a registration law is not principally aimed (i.e., the law-abiding person), can be punished."
 
Awesome break down of the problems with the proposed federal gun bans:
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/Hardy testimony Judiciary final 2d.pdf

"Average deaths in mass slayings stopped by police arrival: 14.3
Average deaths in mass slayings stopped by private citizens: 2.3
Average deaths in mass slayings stopped by armed citizens: 1.8"

The percent of criminals that get firearms from gun shows:
"Both surveys found that under one percent named gun shows as their source: 0.6% in one survey, 0.7% in the other."
 
Great paper with tons of references:
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=3568

Debunking law abiding gun owners snap and murder people:
"The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890’s shows murderers “almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior,” and that “[v]irtually all” murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records—generally long ones."

Debunking wait for the police to save you:
"...criminals take care to strike when police are not present. In fact, police almost never (less than 3 percent of cases) arrive in time to help victims."

Debunking the use of restraining orders:
"A five-year study [PDF] in Massachusetts found that almost 25 percent of domestic murderers were under a restraining order when they killed."

"Annually, three to six times as many victims successfully defend themselves with handguns as criminals misuse handguns (thus handguns do up to six times more good than harm)"

"Resistance with a gun appears to be the most effective [response to criminal attack] in preventing serious injury [to victims, and] for preventing property loss"
 
[ame="www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORt_k7LjGDg"]Ron Paul 2nd Amendment 1989 [Rare] - YouTube[/ame]
 
http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/co...onfiscation-scheme-touted-as-model-for-nation

Perfect example of the hazards of weapons registrations:
"California, which relies on weapons registration records to seize legal firearms from individuals deemed to be “prohibited” by politicians, is now being touted by officials, lawmakers, and anti-gun rights zealots as a potential model for a new federal scheme to disarm certain classes of citizens"

Targeting veterans for disarmament:
'Veterans Disarmament Act,'” Pratt explained. “It codified a practice that had been carried out by the Veterans Administration — sending the names of veterans who have been diagnosed with PTSD [post-traumatic stress disorder]. Well, PTSD doesn't automatically make you a threat to yourself or anybody else, yet they were using that as a basis to bar more people than ever before from being able to legally get their hands on a gun.”
 
Excellent 2nd Amendment quote:

“All too many of the other great tragedies of history – Stalin’s atrocities, the killing fields of Cambodia, the Holocaust, to name but a few – were perpetrated by armed troops against unarmed populations. Many could well have been avoided or mitigated, had the perpetrators known their intended victims were equipped with a rifle and twenty bullets apiece, as the Militia Act required here. If a few hundred Jewish fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto could hold off the Wehrmacht for almost a month with only a handful of weapons, six million Jews armed with rifles could not so easily have been herded into cattle cars.

My excellent colleagues have forgotten these bitter lessons of history. The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do. But few saw the Third Reich coming until it was too late.

The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed – where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once."
:clap:


http://www.usacarry.com/judge-reminds-us-reason-we-own-guns/
 
Can't say enough good things about my old sig sauer p220... Since I purchased it used, I've put 30 + thousand rounds down the same barrel and she still shoots true with the cheapest walmart ammo, IF THEY HAVE ANY...! Also, I've been super happy with a new Zastava 9mm CZ999. It's a sig p226/walther p88 clone. WONDERFUL SHOOTER! And, great price.
 
"In January, following the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre, President Obama issued a “Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence,” along with 22 other “initiatives.” That study, subcontracted out to the Institute of Medicine and National Research Council, was completed in June and contained some surprises for the president."

"Obama had announced at the beginning of the year his push for three major gun control initiatives — universal background checks, a ban on “assault weapons,” and a ban on “high-capacity” magazines — to prevent future mass shootings, no doubt hoping that the CDC study would oblige him by providing evidence that additional gun control measures were justified to reduce gun violence. On the contrary, that study refuted nearly all the standard anti-gun narrative and instead supported many of the positions taken by gun ownership supporters."

"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008."

"Furthermore, the key finding the president was no doubt seeking — that more laws would result in less crime — was missing. The study said that “interventions,” such as background checks and restrictions on firearms and increased penalties for illegal gun use, showed “mixed” results, while “turn-in” programs “are ineffective” in reducing crime. The study noted that most criminals obtained their guns in the underground economy — from friends, family members, or gang members — well outside any influence from gun controls on legitimate gun owners."

“If one were to exclude figures for Illinois, California, New Jersey and Washington, DC, the homicide rate in the United States would be in line with any other country.” These areas, of course, are noted for the most restrictive gun laws in the country, thus negating any opportunity for the president to celebrate the report’s findings."

Article:
http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/cr...ma-contradicts-white-house-anti-gun-narrative

Actual study (quite long) if any wish to read it:
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=R1
 
More coverage of the Obama ordered CDC report on firearms:
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent
“Self-defense can be an important crime deterrent,”

“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,”

“almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year.”

“Between the years 2000 and 2010, firearm-related suicides significantly outnumbered homicides for all age groups, annually accounting for 61 percent of the more than 335,600 people who died from firearm-related violence in the United States.”

"Risk factors and predictors of violence include income inequality, “diminished economic opportunities . . . high levels of family disruption” and “low levels of community participation.”

“whether gun restrictions reduce firearm-related violence is an unresolved issue,” and that there is no evidence “that passage of right-to-carry laws decrease or increase violence crime.” It also stated that proposed “gun turn-in programs are ineffective.”
 
Look who the first commentor is. :mrt:

Those stats are even more impressive when you consider the population has been rising the entire time. Overall number of incidents dropping amongst a rising population means the rates of the different incidents is really plummeting.

The rate of gun mishaps seems to be dropping as fast as the money supply is increasing...

:paperbag:
 
dontdeBasemebro said:
Look who the first commentor is. :mrt:

Those stats are even more impressive when you consider the population has been rising the entire time. Overall number of incidents dropping amongst a rising population means the rates of the different incidents is really plummeting.

The rate of gun mishaps seems to be dropping as fast as the money supply is increasing...

:paperbag:
Click to expand...

Even if individual incidents are in decline taking a rising population into account, it also appears the amount of massacres are increasing steadily. And something really has to be done to prevent future incidents like Sandy Hook.
 
Billy_White said:
Even if individual incidents are in decline taking a rising population into account, it also appears the amount of massacres are increasing steadily. And something really has to be done to prevent future incidents like Sandy Hook.
Click to expand...

so how do you propose we get rid of the .gov?
 
Billy_White said:
Even if individual incidents are in decline taking a rising population into account, it also appears the amount of massacres are increasing steadily. And something really has to be done to prevent future incidents like Sandy Hook.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I agree that hopefully more places like South Dakota will allow schools to arm teachers and other school staff.
 
Havard law study that destroys the anti-gun mantra:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

“data on firearms ownership by constabulary area in England,” like data from the United States, show “a negative correlation,”10 that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest.”

"In 2004, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences released its evaluation from a review of 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, and some original empirical research. It failed to identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicide, or gun accidents."

"The same conclusion was reached in 2003 by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control’s review of thenextant studies."

"adoption of state laws permitting millions of qualified citizens to carry guns has not resulted in more murder or violent crime in these states. Rather, adoption of these statutes has been followed by very significant reductions in murder and violence in these states."

"...per capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent."

"...nations which have violence problems tend to adopt severe gun controls, but these do not reduce violence, which is determined by basic sociocultural and economic factors."

"Though only 15% of Americans over the age of 15 have arrest records,63 approximately 90 percent of “adult murderers have adult records, with an average adult criminal career [involving crimes committed as an adult rather than a child] of six or more years, including four major adult felony arrests."

"Whether causative or not, the consistent international pattern is that more guns equal less murder and other violent crime."

“it is hard to explain that where firearms are most dense, violent crime rates are lowest and where guns are least dense, violent crime rates are highest.”
 
 
Suprising thoughts by the Interpol Secretary General Ronald Noble talking about the recent mall slaughter in Nairobi, Kenya:

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=20637341

"Societies have to think about how they're going to approach the problem," Noble said. "One is to say we want an armed citizenry; you can see the reason for that. Another is to say the enclaves are so secure that in order to get into the soft target you're going to have to pass through extraordinary security."

"Ask yourself: If that was Denver, Col., if that was Texas, would those guys have been able to spend hours, days, shooting people randomly?" Noble said, referring to states with pro-gun traditions. "What I'm saying is it makes police around the world question their views on gun control. It makes citizens question their views on gun control. You have to ask yourself, 'Is an armed citizenry more necessary now than it was in the past with an evolving threat of terrorism?' This is something that has to be discussed."

:clap:
 
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