PM's as currency

Not 100% sure this is the right section, but reading the description for the "PM's" and "Silver" sections, not sure those were 100% right either. So please move if there is a better section for it.

I occasionally post on the odd survival/prepper forum here and there, and often talk turns to PM's, mostly silver, but a fair bit of gold discussion (I won't include brass, lead, copper) and I am always amazed at how little people know about the history of PM's as currency, even those who like to keep some on hand for emergencies. I like to find links that explain the history of PM's both distant past and more recent events that had people using PM's as currency, as well as the growing trend of certain states and areal using them as currency on a normal daily basis. I know of a few good links, but as there are a lot of people on this site there might be a lot I haven't stumbled across yet. Here's a few of the ones I've found that I like so far.

How to Survive an Economic Crash Depression: Money Needs During a Disaster

Silver: Commodity or Money? by Dan Popescu


Silver Buyer's Survival Manual

The Mexican Libertad: The Currency Solution?

Oklahoma Joins Other States and Affirms Gold and Silver as Legal Tender


Texas establishes own gold depository independent of Federal Reserve


Also there are just some links that are interesting and fun, dealing with PM's.


Lots of people often talk about getting burned, mostly online (ebay) by fake silver, shocked that the silver eagles/maples/pandas etc they bought for $2 under spot were fake. Then some genius spouts off about how he only buys junk silver which is never faked, or can't be faked or both. I have heard others say that you should only buy eagles as it is "easy" to spot a fake, or that high quality fakes don't exist for them, wrong again. That's why links like these are important as well, not to scare people off of PM's but to help educate.

Inside a Chinese Coin Counterfeiting Ring

10 Ways Protect Yourself From Fake Bullion Coins

Fake Silver Eagle Coin Fraud

Global Piracy & Counterfeiting Consultants Calls Chinese Counterfeiters Producing Fake Precious Metal Coins a Global Epidemic with Potential Disastrous Consequences

Silver Coin Collectors and Pawn Shops are Getting Duped: “Very High Quality Fakes"

Counterfeit Gold & Silver Bullion

Then there are some general sites I like to include like for starters, this awesome site! Also 3 others I like to always link to.

coinflation.com

cointrackers.com

comparesilverprices.com

I added a couple of "tags" to this thread (see below last post). They list other threads here that have similar or tangential info to what you posted.

Good postg, and I think in the appropriate area. I'm certainly no stickler though. I personally believe that during a period following SHTF, cash will rule until it concentrates in to the hands of the few with resources and those who stocked enough extra to be able to sell off some of it. After that, PM's in the form of old coins and jewelry will begin to circulate as people become more and more desperate for the very basics like food, medicines, sanitary needs and the like. Later, if it becomes a sustained event, like complete collapse of all out civil uprising or civil war, then PM's, ammunition, food and weapons will be the new currency. That and fuel.

ancona said:

Good postg, and I think in the appropriate area. I'm certainly no stickler though. I personally believe that during a period following SHTF, cash will rule until it concentrates in to the hands of the few with resources and those who stocked enough extra to be able to sell off some of it. After that, PM's in the form of old coins and jewelry will begin to circulate as people become more and more desperate for the very basics like food, medicines, sanitary needs and the like. Later, if it becomes a sustained event, like complete collapse of all out civil uprising or civil war, then PM's, ammunition, food and weapons will be the new currency. That and fuel.

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I agree that all of those will be valuable commodities, I wouldn't want to trade ammo or guns after a long term SHTF unless it was someone I knew well. I also think certain sills, like medical training, carpentry or mechanical skills will be very valuable skills to trade. Then of course those old favorites like booze/drugs and prostitution will return as commonly bartered items.

Here's another interesting one I found about bartering clubs in Argentina. Found it trying to find an article about ferfal in argentina. Place sounds like a mosh up of a flea market, farmers market, rummage sale, and street bazaar all rolled into one.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/05/20/argentina.barter/

A few of the links in the OP don't work anymore, I'm just gonna put this right here for now. I'll try and clean up any doubles in this post. I can't edit the OP anymore.

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Sound Money Index: Everything You Need to Know About Gold & Silver Laws in 2018

BIS says gold is a currency, not a commodity


Utah Law Makes Coins Worth Their Weight in Gold (or Silver)


Utah Law allows Merchants to Accept Silver and Gold!

State Laws Can Help Restore Gold and Silver as Money

U.S.Congressmen Introduce Bill to End Taxation of Gold and Silver

States Where Gold and Silver Have Become Legal Tender

Utah Makes It Easier To Pay In Gold And Silver

Arizona Legislature Approves Gold and Silver as Money

Bill would let Texans pay with gold, silver pieces

At Least 10 States Have Introduced Gold Coins-As-Currency Bills

States To Use Gold And Silver As Legal Tender

Arizona Legislature Approves Gold and Silver as Money

States Where Gold, Silver are Legal Tender

Silver: Commodity or Money?

Texas taps private vendor to manage first state-run gold depository in U.S.


Texas Bullion Depository to be Headquartered in City of Leander

Texas just opened the nation's first state-run gold depository. Here's what that means.

Utah man who wants to pay his taxes with silver

Utah Refuses to Let Man Pay Taxes With Silver Despite State Law Making PM’s Legal Tender

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I updated the Youtube in the OP and removed one dead link. Send me a PM with any changes you would like made to the OP and I'll fix it.

PMBug said:

I updated the Youtube in the OP and removed one dead link. Send me a PM with any changes you would like made to the OP and I'll fix it.

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Fixing those links was plenty, I'm just placing some new ones in for all the links in at least one thread, as so many people always say that PM's aren't used as currency anymore or the ones that say junk silver is best as it isn't counterfeited & EVERYONE knows what junk silver is worth! My eyeballs sure get a work out from all the rolling they do trying to explain the reality to them. :soap:

an email from Paul Rosenberg today -

www.freemansperspective.com


How to Crush the Gold Cartel


I have friends who are convinced that a cartel is manipulating the gold and silver markets. I have other friends who disagree, but today I’ll hang with the former. And they plead a good case, with there being 100 times more paper gold than physical and a small group in full control of daily price setting… among other things.

Accordingly, many holders of gold and silver go on about breaking this cartel, even though nothing ever really changes.

Today, however, I’m going to tell everyone exactly how to break the cartel. I’m not sure how many people will take it to heart – there are easier “solutions” being thrown at them all the time – but I’m going to explain it all the same. Each holder of metals can do with it as he or she wishes.
The Simple Plan

If you want to crush the cartel, there’s one simple thing that must be done. Here it is:

Gold and silver must be used in daily commerce.

That’s it. If that happens, the cartel is doomed. If that doesn’t happen, the cartel stands strong.

Let me expand on that for emphasis:

Complaining will accomplish nothing.

Legal maneuvers will accomplish nothing.

Using metals in daily commerce will eliminate the cartel.

Why is this so? Because it creates an alternative pricing system, circumventing paper gold and the London price fixing systems altogether.

If we start using our metals, a commercial infrastructure will have to follow. Local exchangers, large exchangers, assayers, and other businesses will be required to service millions of ounces being exchanged on a daily basis.

All of these non-cartel businesses will soon enough find ways to cooperate and share information (it’s easy these days) and will develop their own pricing mechanisms. In other words, we’ll get pricing based upon real use by real people. That will liberate us from prices devised by the controllers of paper gold and a small, questionable group 3,000 miles away.

Once we have a complete commercial system for precious metals commerce, the cartel will be exposed as a paper charade. Arbitragers will bleed them dry.

So, there’s your solution. The reality of it will be a bit more complex of course, and the cartel will likely fight to stop it from succeeding. But this would be entirely legal as best I know (you can check with your own lawyer) and most certainly constitutional in the US.

Shutting down peaceful metals traders with lawmen and general thuggishness would come with risks. And the cartel will likely fail.
Why This Hasn’t Happened

I’ll be blunt: Most gold and silver advocates (aka, stackers) are waiting for an apocalypse of one sort or another. Then they’ll use their metals, and not before.

Waiting for an apocalypse, while it can be wonderfully dramatic, is a horrible strategy in the here and now. You wait and wait and wait and eventually die waiting for the apocalypse to come. Like this:

This time for sure!

Damn, okay, then this time for sure!

Damn, okay…

Repeated at great length, assuring yourself that you’re keeping the true faith.

Moreover, the myth of democracy plays into this. This myth teaches us that the price of progress is merely to complain well enough. And that, sad to say, is both widely assumed and thoroughly false. The price of progress is action.

This is why Bitcoin and the younger cryptos have been eating the stackers’ lunches. Bitcoin is actually used in daily commerce, with more uses coming all over the world. And because it is actually used, reality-based commercial structures have sprung up around it, making it awfully hard for wannabe cartels to wrap their fingers around crypto.
Please Understand…

I like the stackers. They are usually decent, honest people and good neighbors. And they are ever so right that metals are honest money and durable stores of wealth. I like gold and silver and I like the stackers. I want them to win.

But the stackers are facing a choice they may not like: Either use your metals or wait for an apocalypse that probably won’t come.

Change will most certainly come, but with scarcity dying all around us – with technology continuously expanding our capabilities – traditional doomsday scenarios are highly unlikely, save for short times in ghetto-types of areas.

And the stackers can win… if they use their metals. That will create the independent commercial infrastructure they need, and nothing else will.

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I don't know who Paul Rosenberg is, but I wonder if he's ever heard of Ron Paul's competing currency bills. Essentialy, we need our legislators/representatives to remove certain restrictions on precious metals to enable a level playing field with fiat legal tender.

Rblong,
If gold and silver returned as currency, I'm not convinced there is enough of it to go around quite frankly. It would have to be SERIOUSLY revalued [upward] for there to be enough in my opinion. Something like 500 per ounce silver and 15,000 per ounce gold. At that price, you could seriously fraction it down and coin it. Gold could be coined down to maybe 8k, perhaps half the size of a dime to be a hundred dollar bill for instance. Same for silver. 80 percent silver and so forth. The laws on the books are pretty clear about gold and silver as our currency, but the creatures of Jekyll Island took care of that for us.

I for one would love to see paper gold and silver eliminated. In addition, I would love to see trading in "borrowed shares" eliminated as well. That practice is total bullshit, as the shorted shares are nearly never truly borrowed and never truly exist in the first place. The market is simply manipulated by bad actors who skim a large vig at the expense of real investors and long term savers.

ancona said:

Rblong,
If gold and silver returned as currency, I'm not convinced there is enough of it to go around quite frankly. It would have to be SERIOUSLY revalued [upward] for there to be enough in my opinion. Something like 500 per ounce silver and 15,000 per ounce gold. At that price, you could seriously fraction it down and coin it. Gold could be coined down to maybe 8k, perhaps half the size of a dime to be a hundred dollar bill for instance. Same for silver. 80 percent silver and so forth. The laws on the books are pretty clear about gold and silver as our currency, but the creatures of Jekyll Island took care of that for us.

I for one would love to see paper gold and silver eliminated. In addition, I would love to see trading in "borrowed shares" eliminated as well. That practice is total bullshit, as the shorted shares are nearly never truly borrowed and never truly exist in the first place. The market is simply manipulated by bad actors who skim a large vig at the expense of real investors and long term savers.

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For the most part I wouldn't see PM's becoming part of the entire planets exclusive currency. The original paper money in Asia was similar to how ours started out, a note that could be exchanged for a set amount of gold or silver. You might also see a return of the older style checks that were mainly used by business' but I would suspect would be adopted by the more affluent people who have a healthy supply of physical PM's God help them if they bounce a check under those conditions. Also gold & silver aren't the only PM's or tangible assets that can store wealth or be exchanged for it. There are still things, like copper, palladium, platinum (which at the rate it's going will be around silvers current $ value). There are also precious gems, which I know, diamonds at least are seriously over valued & controlled by a couple corp.'s that own almost all of the worlds supply of diamonds, as well as bribing industries to only make industrial grade diamonds instead of gem quality ones. Also if things got bad enough, you would see a pretty hefty increase in barter outside of any type of currency whether paper or PM, etc. I will trade you X amount of food for Y amount of help with Z. You would also see scavenging & recycling of electronics & other items containing PM's skyrocket. If things were truly bad, many of the industries that use those products (along with a lot of others I would bet) would shut down or at least seriously slow down in their production & the prices of those items would skyrocket as well. If it was also a result of some pandemic, or global war, the # of people around to acquire PM's would be less as well. A loaf of bread if exchanged for PM's might cost a few copper pennies, not 1/20'th ozt of gold or even an ASE/CSM. Maybe if prices are real bad it costs a junk silver dime (or quarter :flail: ). I think the fact that entire states are moving to recognize PM's as legal tender show that more & more sheeple are waking up the fact that $21 trilllion+ & rising debt can't be sustained & some day the bill will come due. All you have to do is look around just within the last century what has happened in countries with hyper inflation, govt. unrest of some nature or even people bribing their way out of countries with oppressive regimes, many within the last 20 years even. I'm actually glad when most people poo-poo the value of PM's as it will help keep the value against the $ low & I can keep stacking. ffftt:

ancona said:

... It would have to be SERIOUSLY revalued [upward] for there to be enough in my opinion. Something like 500 per ounce silver and 15,000 per ounce gold. At that price, you could seriously fraction it down and coin it. Gold could be coined down to maybe 8k, perhaps half the size of a dime to be a hundred dollar bill for instance. ...

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1. I agree that a revaluation would occur.

2. I haven't done the math on how high the revaluation might reasonably go, but I've seen pundits claiming higher numbers than $15K gold for various reasons.

3. Even at $15K gold, 1/10 toz of gold would be $1.5K. Have you ever held 1/10 toz gold in your hand? It's TINY. Much smaller than a dime. I can't even imagine a smaller subdivision used as a coin in commerce. Silver would definitely take on the job of a day to day transactional medium.

PMBug said:

1. I agree that a revaluation would occur.

2. I haven't done the math on how high the revaluation might reasonably go, but I've seen pundits claiming higher numbers than $15K gold for various reasons.

3. Even at $15K gold, 1/10 toz of gold would be $1.5K. Have you ever held 1/10 toz gold in your hand? It's TINY. Much smaller than a dime. I can't even imagine a smaller subdivision used as a coin in commerce. Silver would definitely take on the job of a day to day transactional medium.

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Well, I own both gold 1/10th & 1/20th(CGM) ozt coins. I also have one SLA 1/0th ozt coin & several of the Suns of Liberty 1/10th ozt silver squares.

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From a few years ago. Oddly the guy hyping using PM's & making the video, doesn't seem overly knowledgeable about them, or maybe he's just acting, but there are more than dimes that are 90% silver without worrying about it being a 40% like with the 1/2 dollar. Also doesn't seem to mention (or isn't aware of) ASE's, private mint silver, etc.

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