Ukraine

[Goldhedge]

"guns to the head" is figurative. It means intimidation/coercion.

I got that. They weren't intimidated. They voted for the same thing in 2014 before being 'intimidated'...

Really? The west has agents/soldiers/operatives in the Russian occupied areas in sufficient numbers to disrupt an election? You really believe that?

'West' is Ukraine west, not US. and yes they have spies as do the Russians probing the front lines.

One tragic 'proof' is the car bombing of Darya Dugina. The car didn't bomb itself!

I don't doubt that there are folks who were pro Russia that made videos and were promoted by Russian media. It's also true that there are videos from folks who are against Russia that complained about coercion that were promoted by western media. Neither side has a monopoly on truth (or lies for that matter). As I said, how much of the population* fits into each basket is an open question.

* bear in mind that there are reports that Russia has expatriated large numbers of Ukrainians to internment camps in Russia. I'm guessing they didn't imprison the residents that were pro-Russian.

I haven't seen any evidence of 'internment' camps. People are free to come and go from what I've seen. They willingly left for the safety of Russia.

Are the Russians evacuating people? Sure. To keep them out of harms way. The west has been indiscriminately bombing the Donbas for 8 years. Civilians, not military targets. A war crime btw. Terrorism.

 

[Joe King]

It amazes me how folks can be so suspicious and dismissive of the MSM

After what we've seen out of the msm over the past seven years, I'm astounded that anyone takes what they say at face value.

Edited to add:....and for a lot longer than that, if one has been paying keen attention.
It's only been clearly apparent for the past 7.

 

[Joe King]

Longer than that. That's just the flashpoint where Putin's pal got deposed and the country held an election. The eastern regions of Ukraine aren't homogeneous entities. There is a percentage of folk in the east that is/was/were pro-Russian.

As there are also pro-Russian in the West part of Ukraine, too.

I said back in 2014 that they should have just split the nation into two parts. Ie: make everyone happy, instead of each side trying to kill the other in a quest to force them to go along with them.

They became a pawn in the proxy war between Russia and the west. Russia lost patience with the proxy part and thought they could shock and awe a solution. That didn't happen and here we are.

Again, shoulda just divided the nation in two in 2014 and been done with it.

 

[pmbug]

I got that. They weren't intimidated. ...

Not even the ones that said they were (at great risk to themselves and their loved ones)? We covered this ground already. No point in going in circles. You believe Russian media and dismiss first person accounts that don't jive with their narrative.

I haven't seen any evidence of 'internment' camps. ...

Filtration camps, also referred to as concentration camps,[2][3][4] have been used by Russian forces during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine[5][6][7][8] to process Ukrainian citizens from regions under Russian occupation before transferring them into Russia.[9]

Beatings, torture by electricity and killings have been reported by people interrogated in the filtration camps.[10]

The number of Ukrainian citizens relocated to Russia cannot be independently verified. According to the Ukrainian government, some 1.6 million Ukrainians have been forcibly relocated to Russia, with about 250,000 of these being children.[11] The Russian government denies it is forcibly removing Ukrainians to Russia[7] and calls the deportations "evacuation".[12]
...
5) Vlachou, Marita (2022-04-05). "Mariupol Women Report Russians Taking Ukrainians To 'Filtration Camps'". HuffPost. Archived from the original on 2022-05-21. Retrieved 2022-05-02.

6) Sauer, Pjotr (2022-04-04). "Hundreds of Ukrainians forcibly deported to Russia, say Mariupol women". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2022-05-06. Retrieved 2022-05-02.

7) Peter, Laurence (2022-03-27). "Russia transfers thousands of Mariupol civilians to its territory". BBC News. Archived from the original on 2022-03-31. Retrieved 2022-05-02.

8) Mackintosh, Eliza; Ochman, Oleksandra; Mezzofiore, Gianluca; Polglase, Katie; Rebane, Teele; Graham-Yooll, Anastasia. "Russia or die". CNN. Archived from the original on 2022-07-17. Retrieved 2022-05-02.

9) Beard, Nadia (2022-06-12). "Ukrainians who fled to Georgia reveal details of Russia's 'filtration camps'". the Guardian. Archived from the original on 2022-07-18. Retrieved 2022-07-08.

10) "'The Russians said beatings were my re-education'". BBC News. 2022-06-16. Archived from the original on 2022-06-18. Retrieved 2022-06-19.

11) Solomon, Erika (2022-07-08). "The U.S. identified 18 Russian 'filtration camps' for Ukrainians, a diplomat says". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on 2022-07-08. Retrieved 2022-07-08.

12) "Минобороны отчиталось об эвакуации более 500 тыс. человек в Россию". Archived from the original on 2022-05-06. Retrieved 2022-05-04.
...

Russian filtration camps for Ukrainians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thousands of Mariupol residents ‘forcibly’ taken to Russian camps: reports

Thousands of Ukrainian residents of the besieged city of Mariupol have reportedly been “forcibly” moved to cities in the Russian interior over the past week.

nypost.com

Russia is depopulating parts of eastern Ukraine, forcibly removing thousands into remote parts of Russia

Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have been processed through a series of Russian "filtration camps" in Eastern Ukraine and sent into Russia as part of a systemized program of forced removal, according to four sources familiar with the latest Western intelligence -- an estimate far higher than...

www.cnn.com

After what we've seen out of the msm over the past seven years, I'm astounded that anyone takes what they say at face value.

Facts are objective. Truth isn't. It takes work to critically analyze news reports no matter the source.

 

[Goldbrix]

As there are also pro-Russian in the West part of Ukraine, too.
.....
I said back in 2014 that they should have just split the nation into two parts. Ie: make everyone happy, instead of each side trying to kill the other in a quest to force them to go along with them.

Again, shoulda just divided the nation in two in 2014 and been done with it.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Wouldas, couldas, and shouldas we'd all be BILLIONaires.

 

[Goldhedge]

You believe Russian media and dismiss first person accounts that don't jive with their narrative.

Not necessarily true. The US/West lumps the indy reporters into the 'Pootin Stooges' camp (aka Russian media) when in reality they're on the ground reporting what they are witnessing and getting first person accounts of who, what, where, and why and it just so happens it doesn't 'jive' with the MSM ergo they're lambasted in the press as traitors, bank accounts seized, without a proper trial convicted of made up crimes in abstentia all for not adhering to the 'approved' message (propaganda).

Call me suspicious, but that sounds to me like someone has something to hide...?

Not to mention the very first thing the US/West did was to censor any Russian news sources ala Doctors and Nurses who also didn't adhere to the government narrative about CV19 - which we all know now to be a pack of lies waiting to be exposed even further!

It's the same playbook. Wash, rinse, repeat and the lemmings believe it all is true... at least 67.5% of the total U.S. population believed the jab was in their best interest. I'm not so sure that number is correct today because people are waking up to the reality the <shock> government lied.

 

[Joe King]

Not even the ones that said they were (at great risk to themselves and their loved ones)? We covered this ground already. No point in going in circles. You believe Russian media and dismiss first person accounts that don't jive with their narrative.

How can we know if those first person accounts are legit, or if they are being manufactured as propaganda?
....and the same can be said for opposing first person accounts, too.
As I said, we little people have no way of verifying any of it.

All I know is that the people there have been fighting each other for quite awhile, and therefore it is more likely than not that the vote was more accurate than not.
Why would they vote in favor of what they've been fighting against? It would make no sense.

If a vote were held in the Western part of Ukraine, I would expect that vote to be the exact opposite as the ones in the East. Ie: to be in favor of the Ukrainian gov. As that is what most there support.

 

[Goldhedge]

Not even the ones that said they were (at great risk to themselves and their loved ones)? We covered this ground already. No point in going in circles. You believe Russian media and dismiss first person accounts that don't jive with their narrative.

Russian filtration camps for Ukrainians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thousands of Mariupol residents ‘forcibly’ taken to Russian camps: reports

Thousands of Ukrainian residents of the besieged city of Mariupol have reportedly been “forcibly” moved to cities in the Russian interior over the past week.

nypost.com

Russia is depopulating parts of eastern Ukraine, forcibly removing thousands into remote parts of Russia

Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have been processed through a series of Russian "filtration camps" in Eastern Ukraine and sent into Russia as part of a systemized program of forced removal, according to four sources familiar with the latest Western intelligence -- an estimate far higher than...

www.cnn.com

Facts are objective. Truth isn't. It takes work to critically analyze news reports no matter the source.

Let's see, Wikipedia, NY Post, & CNN all proven over these past 2 years to be shills for the deep state be it "Russia Russia Russia", Hunter's laptop is Russian disinfo, 2 weeks to flatten the curve, if you take the jab you're protecting your neighbor, get the jab it will protect you, mostly peaceful riots, Russia bombed Nordstream and the Nuclear power plant, I could go on, but you all know the story by heart by now....

This is precisely why I seek out the indy reporters who are NOT getting paid by any organization (though the west implies they're on Putin's payroll).

I think the best way to know the truth, besides following indy reporters, is to go there and see for oneself. Unfortunately, you can't book a flight to Russia anymore! Imagine that!

You can go, but it's by a circuitous route flying into Samakand Uzbekistan and then to Russia. Cost about $1200 and 15 hours of your time.

 

[Joe King]

It's the same playbook. Wash, rinse, repeat and the lemmings believe it all is true... at least 67.5% of the total U.S. population believed the jab was in their best interest

That's the same 2/3rds that could be easily convinced that it is in their best interests to load a select portion of their fellow citizens into boxcars.

 

[Goldhedge]

All I know is that the people there have been fighting each other for quite awhile, and therefore it is more likely than not that the vote was more accurate than not.
Why would they vote in favor of what they've been fighting against? It would make no sense.

It's like Russia is bombing the nuclear plant and Nordstream. One has to suspend logic to believe that to be the case!

If a vote were held in the Western part of Ukraine, I would expect that vote to be the exact opposite as the ones in the East. Ie: to be in favor of the Ukrainian gov. As that is what most there support.

Twice. Once in 2014 which was ignored and in 2022 which they're saying was illegitimate.

I think had they honored 2014's vote there would not have been a war today. The 4 regions would have been part of Russia and that would have been the end of it.

Since the west terrorized the east by bombing (Russian) civilians for the past 8 years Putin decided enough (they crossed his red line) and now all of Ukraine will be Russia. Azov NAZI's will be eliminated. Anachronistic NATO might not survive, nor will the EU.

 

[Joe King]

It's like Russia is bombing the nuclear plant and Nordstream. One has to suspend logic to believe that to be the case!

Yes, it is only for the brain dead to think that Russia would shell a nuke plant that they have control of.
....or blow up their only bargaining chip with Europe.
....and do it the day before a competing pipeline comes on-line. Lol

I think had they honored 2014's vote there would not have been a war today. The 4 regions would have been part of Russia and that would have been the end of it.

The 2014 vote should have been honored.

Our own Founding Documents recognize the Right of a People to alter or even abolish their government in favor of one more beneficial to themselves.

If those people think they are better off a part of Russia, so be it.

Why go to war in order to force people to be a part of your nation who do not want to be a part of it?

 

[pmbug]

...
I think had they honored 2014's vote there would not have been a war today. ...

I disagree. Putin was never going to let Ukraine align itself with the west (and gravitate to the EU). You think it was just the west stirring conflict in the Donbass etc.? Putin/Russia acted in bad faith with the Minsk accords as much as anyone.

 

[Goldhedge]

I disagree. Putin was never going to let Ukraine align itself with the west (and gravitate to the EU). You think it was just the west stirring conflict in the Donbass etc.? Putin/Russia acted in bad faith with the Minsk accords as much as anyone.

And why should he let Ukraine align itself with the Deep State NWO Biden crime syndicate?

We all know the REAL reason for the US/NATO involvement.

It's to bring peace, and democracy to the freedom loving people of Ukraine just like we brought those tenets to Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Viet Nam, N. Korea... et al....

 

[Joe King]

I disagree. Putin was never going to let Ukraine align itself with the west (and gravitate to the EU). You think it was just the west stirring conflict in the Donbass etc.? Putin/Russia acted in bad faith with the Minsk accords as much as anyone.

How would we (our gov) react if China started exerting themselves in Canada and/or Mexico to the point of turning their govs away from us? Would we sit by and just allow that to happen?

Do you think we might have something to say, and perhaps do, about it?

Imho, NATO has no business in Ukraine.
....but if it is considered ok for us to invade and/or help to get the govs of other nations overthrown that we see as being hostile to our interests, then every nation has the Right to do the same.

 

[Goldhedge]

You should ALL listen to this!

Masha was a Russian leftist until Mark Dougan (American ex Marine, ex Cop) took her to Donbas to translate for him.

There is an earlier video he made recording her translating and the people set her straight on who was doing what to whom.
August 17, 2022

1.75x

I took a LIBERAL, ANTI WAR Protester to see the truth in Donbass, and THIS Happened!​

This is my most powerful interview yet. I took Maria, a fierce liberal, anti-war protester to the FRONT LINES of the war in the Donbass to see things for herself, to speak to the people for herself. This woman, with balls of steel, even walked with me through the streets of Svyatogorsk, with Ukrainian snipers just 200 meters away, to speak to civilians trapped in their basements and bring them food. How much of what she believed was right? Or wrong? This is an interview you must see to believe.
43m

​

 

[Goldhedge]

This is how the people think in Russia and Donbas & Luhansk

Interview with Kirill Stremousov, Vice Governor of Kherson Region​

Kirill Stremousov loves his home, loves his country. Despite the incredible danger to his safety as Vice Governor of the Kherson region, he shows tremendous poise and initiative while managing all aspects of this conflict, including the evacuation of citizens from the evil that threatens them. Arnaud Develay does this interview with me while Masha translates.
23m

 

[WillA2]

The west wasn't a party to the Minsk agreements. Russia was but claims they weren't. There is a whole lot of finger pointing over the failure of the agreements and it appears to me there is ample evidence that both Russia and Ukraine acted in bad faith.

Minsk agreements - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This war in Ukraine isn't about Minsk IMO. Putin's puppet in Ukraine got deposed and he could not abide that. Everything else is theater. $.02

Zelenski isn't a nato puppet? He's part of the global homo enslavement campaign.

 

[pmbug]

And why should ...

How would we ...

Fellas, I didn't make a value judgement. I didn't excoriate or justify. I simply stated what I believe to be true. This war isn't about the people in Ukraine. It's about the Ukraine government/economy favoring the west or the east. Putin was never going to allow Ukraine to align with the west once his buddy got deposed.

 

[pmbug]

... the global homo enslavement campaign

That is a terrible name for a rock band.

 

[WillA2]

Correct. France and Germany are part of Western Europe, not "the West." They are the ones I had in mind when I incorrectly said west.

View attachment 1378

Promises were made just to get the Soviet Union to come to the table to reunification of Germany.

 

[spinalcracker]

Putin did not want Ukraine join NATO

wouldnt that be like Manuel López Obrador or Treadeau Castro putting Missiles in Juarez or Etobicoke respectively?

well I never

 

[WillA2]

AKA: "We'll see how this war goes."

 

[WillA2]

Really? The west has agents/soldiers/operatives in the Russian occupied areas in sufficient numbers to disrupt an election? You really believe that?

Yes. That's how Zelinsky came to power.

 

[Goldhedge]

I don't know if you ever listen to Alex and Alexander, but they cover the situation from an economic perspective that you won't get from the MSM.

Yes, they're considered "Putin's stooges", of course they are, but they make you think and that is worth its weight in gold!

Russia prepares for next phase. Putin orders creation of special coordination council​

24m - 1.5X

 

[WillA2]

Not even the ones that said they were (at great risk to themselves and their loved ones)? We covered this ground already. No point in going in circles. You believe Russian media and dismiss first person accounts that don't jive with their narrative.

Poor babies being taken from incubators...

Redux...

 

[spinalcracker]

shelves are full and prices are cheap downtown Kiev

looks like a nice Safeway store

 

[SongSungAu]

"will of the population" - Is that with or without a gun to their heads?

depends on which voice one listens to.

All these are probably telling the "gun to their heads" narrative:

 

[SongSungAu]

You should ALL listen to this!

Masha was a Russian leftist until Mark Dougan (American ex Marine, ex Cop) took her to Donbas to translate for him.

Goldhedge, I don't think you are going to change any minds ... people believe what they want to think is the truth.

 

[Goldhedge]

shelves are full and prices are cheap downtown Kiev

looks like a nice Safeway store

Same thing in Russia. Sanctions are doing NOTHING to hurt Russia.

Ruble is stronger than it's ever been.

Over 15 years ago Putin told his people to save wealth by buying gold. What a dummy!

Goldhedge, I don't think you are going to change any minds ... people believe what they want to think is the truth.

Not trying to change anyone's mind. Watch the videos and make up your own mind.

The videos are the antitheses to the 6 corporations who control the media and government.

Watch them. Listen to their perspective. Make up your own mind.

At least you'll have a broader perspective so that when shit rolls down hill you can say "That's a bag of shit!"

"But it's really good shit Mrs. Loosner"​

If I didn't post them, folks wouldn't even KNOW about them what with the media censorship they deny is happening.

I watch ALL the videos I post - hey, I'm retired and can't play pickleball all day long! I also read a lot of what gets posted at PMBug!

It doesn't mean I'm a Putin fan boi... it means I like to hear all three sides of a story....

 

[SongSungAu]

Same thing in Russia. Sanctions are doing NOTHING to hurt Russia.

Ruble is stronger than it's ever been.

Over 15 years ago Putin told his people to save wealth by buying gold. What a dummy!

Not trying to change anyone's mind. Watch the videos and make up your own mind.

The videos are the antitheses to the 6 corporations who control the media and government.

Watch them. Listen to their perspective. Make up your own mind.

At least you'll have a broader perspective so that when shit rolls down hill you can say "That's a bag of shit!"

"But it's really good shit Mrs. Loosner"​

If I didn't post them, folks wouldn't even KNOW about them what with the media censorship they deny is happening.

I watch ALL the videos I post - hey, I'm retired and can't play pickleball all day long! I also read a lot of what gets posted at PMBug!

It doesn't mean I'm a Putin fan boi... it means I like to hear all three sides of a story....

I agree with you. You make valid points. I just don't think some folks will watch the videos or if they do they will not do more research.

I didn't mean to be a Negative Nelly. Carry on, brother. You post good stuff. Perhaps some will pay attention at some point in time.


.

 

[Goldhedge]

Perhaps some will pay attention at some point in time.

Probably after Russia grinds down Ukraine's military into kielbasa and makes borsht out of them... while bankrupting the already bankrupt west....

 

[Goldhedge]

I find it interesting to listen to these random vids from foreigners

Russian Electronics Store After 8 Months of Sanctions​

Take a walk inside a Russian Typical Electronics store in Regional Moscow. Let find out what the prices are like after 8 months of Sanctions. What brands will we find, what sort of prices are being offers on products like phones, televisions and fridges in 2022.
18m

 

[pmbug]

depends on which voice one listens to.

All these are probably telling the "gun to their heads" narrative:
...

Now do Russia.

 

[SongSungAu]

Now do Russia.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
I'm concerned about my country. I will leave it to folks in Russia to worry about their situation.

Perhaps you could ask Edward Snowden if you are really interested.

 

[pmbug]

Perhaps you could ask Edward Snowden if you are really interested.

I already know that Russian media is 100% controlled by the Kremlin. Nothing happens on Russian media that isn't approved unless it's a mistake like the hot mike moment where the Russian official admitted they were using Iranian drones when he thought they weren't live yet. This is one reason why Julia Davis' twitter feed is, IMO, interesting to follow. You get to hear what the Kremlin is telling their people and not just what Russian media is disseminating to the west.

Mass media in Russia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SongSungAu]

I already know that Russian media is 100% controlled by the Kremlin. Nothing happens on Russian media that isn't approved unless it's a mistake like the hot mike moment where the Russian official admitted they were using Iranian drones when he thought they weren't live yet. This is one reason why Julia Davis' twitter feed is, IMO, interesting to follow. You get to hear what the Kremlin is telling their people and not just what Russian media is disseminating to the west.

Mass media in Russia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am not of the belief that that excuses or makes okay the fact that six companies control what people in the USA hear, see, and read.

.

 

[Goldhedge]

It stuff like this that makes it difficult to believe either side.

How does one trust that these are Russian torture chambers? They could easily be Ukrainian.

How do we even know this IS a torture chamber? How many folks will read this and believe the narrative spin?

 

[SongSungAu]

Giorgia Meloni Tells Ex-PM Berlusconi 'Keep Your Mouth Shut' After Audio Leaks Bashing NATO

Zerohedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

The rest at the link above.

 

[Goldhedge]

View attachment 1422

Giorgia Meloni Tells Ex-PM Berlusconi 'Keep Your Mouth Shut' After Audio Leaks Bashing NATO

Zerohedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

View attachment 1423

The rest at the link above.

When the quiet part is said out loud and they go ballistic for him telling the truth...

 

[pmbug]

I am not of the belief that that excuses or makes okay the fact that six companies control what people in the USA hear, see, and read.

I agree that it's not ideal. While they don't face the same political pressures here that media in Russia faces, and while the companies are public companies that answer to shareholders, the management holds tremendous power over the editorial direction (and are part of the elite good old boy network (Bilderberg, CFR, etc.)).

That said, from what I see posted here, some of you do give a free pass to narratives disseminated from Russian media. It's a baffling display of cognitive dissonance IMO.